2003-2004 NBA Season (2 Viewers)

[Casey Trowbridg]

Unfortunately, the HTF crowd has a little more grounding in reality. You're going to have to give actual evidence and sound conclusions in your arguments.
Leave the civilized sports talk to the adults in the room. You might hurt yourself.

Definitely, I'm a Lakers fan but I'd hope that my posts as to why I think they could win it all are viewed by the others as reasonable. Seth made several great posts about why he thought Indiana could take it all this year, a number of us didn't see it the same way but we give credit for the presentation of the argument. Hunter has a strong alliance with the Kings to say the least, but he supports what he says with coherent arguments grounded in reality.
When I first read that post I knew there would be trouble. If you think L.A. is going to coast through the playoffs, don't just say it, explain it and show why you think that way. You may find some people that see it different than you but they'll like your argument better than if its the 'cause I say so defense.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Unfortunately, the HTF crowd has a little more grounding in reality. You're going to have to give actual evidence and sound conclusions in your arguments. Leave the civilized sports talk to the adults in the room. You might hurt yourself.

Yes, thankfully the other participants of this thread are more adult. I tip my hat to Hunter, even if Chris Weber (sic) is on his favorite team.

 

[Chris Farmer]

I agree with the others here, and am definitely looking forward to this season's playoffs. This is as open as the field has been in recent memory, with 5 teams with a legit shot to win it all (Kings, Spurs, Lakers, pacers, and Pistons, in no particular order, although the Kings are fading) along with several teams with some great upset potential (Grizzlies, Rockets if they fetch the T-wolves, Heat, and others). Unless the Lakers can really get rolling (and they're dangerously close to that point now, I hope the Rockets tonight and/or Spurs Sunday can cool them down some), this playoff set is wide open. There should be some great series, and I'm definitely looking forward to it.

 

[george kaplan]

Kobe was riding a bench in Portland a few years ago? I have to admit Hunter, that one baffles me.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

Actually, Kobe came off the bench his rookie season, but was elected to start in the Allstar game, as 1 of 4 Lakers that made the team that year joining Shaq, Eddie Jones, and Nick Van Exel.

Big win for Dallas tonight, maybe this gets them some momentum back, Sacramento is still free falling IMO, now 0-2 on the texas trip. Things are falling in to place for L.A. to be the top sead...and I must admit I didn't even think it was possible, I was content for the 3 sead.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

Of Course, the way the Lakers are shooting early, and the way Houston is playing early if it continues, the Lakers won't be catching anyone tonight.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

Tie game in the third quarter, I'd like to see L.A. shooting a little better. This game is like a WWE wrestling match with bodies flying all over the place.

 

[george kaplan]

Casey,

Thanks for clarifying what Hunter probably meant (coming off the bench). I didn't read it that way, but it makes sense.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

Thanks for clarifying what Hunter probably meant (coming off the bench). I didn't read it that way, but it makes sense.

No problem, I had to look at it a couple of times myself, and really wasn't sure what one had to do with the other initially.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

For those that remember my "Oh my god, Anthony Peiler plays for the Kings," shock from a few weeks ago, you can now add Clarance Witherspoon to the list of guys I swear I didn't know was still in the NBA, and yet there he is playing for Houston.

Danny Manning's not kicking around some team's roster is he?

 

[Seth Paxton]

Does anyone really think that Jermaine can stop Shaq during the playoffs? The Lakers are significantly better at every position.

Actually at SF the Lakers are drastically outmatched by Artest, and frankly while I respect Malone's game still JO is far more athletic at this point...what's that, you thought JO was a center. Yeah, welcome to the East &$*&$#!

PG, SG, and C go to the Lakers
SF, PF and bench go to the Pacers

Only someone who doesn't honestly watch both the East and West would say different. It kills me that Laker fans think their bench is so great when teams like the Kings, Pacers, and Griz have far deeper benches.

Just look at 3 point shooting as an example. Take the highest average made 3's per team:

Lakers have only 3 guys making more than .6 per game, topping out with Kobe averaging 1.1 with a .345 rate. George gets .8 at .355 and Rush gets .7 at .356.

Pacers give you 4 guys hitting .7 or more per game, Miller a 1.7 (.405) per game, far better than Kobe, Tinsley with 1.5 (.372) which is also better than Payton by a large margin, and Artest 1.0 (.303) which isn't a great average but pretty strong for an inside player known for his defense. But then you still get Croshere off the bench getting .7 at a .406 rate.

The point is that the Pacers shoot the 3 better by a lot and it's not just a case of less attempts, they actually take more attempts. When Bender is healthy he's hitting at a 50% rate, averaging .5 makes per game himself, far better than what the Laker bench has to offer.

Harrington is also a much more legit 6th man candidate than anyone the Lakers have.

I'm not denying the Lakers' strengths. They have them. But they also have weaknesses which is why they aren't undefeated even when the big 4 are all healthy.

Also, no offense to other teams benches, the Pacers are just more relevent to me of course. Of the top West teams I'd say the Lakers have about the worst bench. Many East teams are also deeper.


I will say this, IF the Pacers can get it done and win it all, doing so over the Lakers would be 10 times more satisfying than over any other West team. But I would prefer to SEE the Kings, Wolves, Spurs, Mavs, Griz, or Rockets more since I like the players on those teams a lot more, especially the Spurs, Mavs and Kings.

Hell, I'd relish seeing the Pistons or Nets give it to the Lakers too. That would almost make up for the Pacers not getting to the Finals, god forbid.



Hunter, I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so. It all comes down to the Lakers in Sactown it looks like. Of course the Kings need some damage control themselves. The bottom line is that they just aren't so hot on the road (just like the Lakers). For the Kings the good news is that the Lakers game is in Sacramento. I sort of think the Kings win that game and save the division at the last second, just a hunch on how these things go.

Kings need Brad Miller back too.

 

[Seth Paxton]

And we keep talking about the Lakers creeping back just in time. Meanwhile the defending champs are doing quite a bit of creeping up themselves. I think in a series the Spurs still have the edge.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

Seth, when I read that post earlier, I thought of you and how you'd react when yu read it and you didn't disappoint me. I'm clapping for you over here I really am.

I tell you, I like the sports discussions here at HTF. In each of the threads going you've got a lot of fans of a lot of teams, and yet you have a lot of discussion of the actual game, and not just the teams that play it, if that makes since. I'll find myself not only talking about the Raiders and what they need in the draft, but the Lions or Eagles, or Cowboys or whatever, and there is some good natured ribbing from time to time but its all in good fun.

If I wanted to talk about the Lakers specifically I could go to a Lakers message board, but when I want to talk hoops, I come here. Big difference.

Yes, our bench sucks. It sucked when we won the three championships and is only slightly better than those teams because now Fisher is not starting with Peyton in town. Yet, in spite of that fact and even if we have to play at Indiana in the finals (provided of course we get that far) I'm not worried, or I should say I won't make excuses if we lose because honestly I think we can win it all home or on the road, weak bench or not. Would I like a better bench of course I would, but that's the price you pay when you've got 4 hall of famers in your starting lineup.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

Well, the Lakers pulled it out tonight, Houston with turnovers didn't help obviously. They've got to play Denver tomorrow, and Sacramento soon after that so things are getting tougher for the Rockets.

 

[Jan H]

Geez, Seth, why bother even conducting the playoffs? The Pacers are so clearly better than everyone in the league that it's a foregone conclusion that they'll win the championship. But seriously, though it smacked of kicking a good team while it's down (The Kings), I agree with much of what 'Santa Barbara Joe' said. Until a team from the East wins the championship (without Michael Jordan, which hasn't happened since 1990), I'll also be highly skeptical. I'll believe it when I see it. I also agree that the Lakers are the only team that can beat the Lakers in a 7-game series. Though the guy couldn't spell Chris Webur's name, you shouldn't discount what he says because of your unabashed hatred of the purple and gold.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Thanks Casey.

BTW, I was looking at defenses and general stats and I noticed that as of now the Pacers are outscoring their opponents more than any other team except...the Spurs.

And if defense wins championships, then what does it say that the two teams outscoring opponents by so much also are the 2nd and 3rd best teams in points allowed. And the 3rd best team in points separation happens to be the best team in points allowed...Detroit. Interesting.

Another connection is that at this point I think it would be tough to argue against the idea that Artest (Pacers), Bowen (Spurs) and B Wallace (Pistons) are the 3 best defensive players in the game.

In the Pacers case, Artest is the key to the team both defensively and offensively. I think people that don't watch them don't realize how critical his offense is, nor how crafty he is with his strength. He has an ugly but very effective offensive game with just enough outside shooting to keep you honest. He is as all-around good as anyone in the NBA right now, seriously. Everyone keys on JO, but its easier to deny him the ball down the stretch. If Ron has a bad offensive night it means real trouble for the Pacers, much more than if JO has a tough night.


I said it the other day and now I'm hearing several NBA analysts saying the same thing...Karl and Gary really spark the Lakers, especially on defense. IMO the team seems to be feeding more off of them than anything.

It's hard to read where Minny is in all this mess. Heck, they could sneak back into the #1 West seed now. Take note, the Wolves have the head to head tie breaker with the Lakers and the 2-1 lead with one to play against the Kings.

2 games with Memphis and a game at Sacramento make for a tough road to that #1 seed, but at least they get a shot at it.

 

[Joe Wilmore]

I apologize for my spelling of Webber. But the games tonight further prove my point. Webber can't carry a franchise. He never wanted to, and he never wants the ball at the end of the game. Kobe was not riding the bench a few years ago, he was winning his first championship. Not one person who is a Laker fan thought that they needed Karl and Gary to win another championship, that has been proven over the last few years. I am sorry if my last post seemed over the top, but I don't see how anyone has proven any of my points wrong.

 

[Seth Paxton]

without Michael Jordan, which hasn't happened since 1990

Yeah, that makes sense. An East team should have made it to the Finals over Jordan even though the best of the West couldn't do it. Does that mean that you do or don't think the East was better, since you expected the other East teams to fare better against Jordan.

I will say this, NO West team ever took Jordan to 7 games. At least the Pacers did that, and had the lead halfway into the 4th quarter in Chicago of game 7. The Jazz and Sonics have dreams about just getting to game 7 against Jordan.

Without Duncan and Shaq no West team has won since 1995. Yeah, that does make it sound better.

Maybe its about the teams more than the conference. The Bulls dominated, the Rockets won 2 in a row (knocking off higher seeded West teams along the way), and now the Spurs/Lakers are dominating. The other West teams are getting knocked off just like the Nets, Sixers, and Pacers did. Maybe the other West teams are no better than them, just like you suggest about the East during the Jordan years.

 

[george kaplan]

Yes, otherwise just give it to the Spurs again. It is a new season. And with Malone & Payton the Lakers are better than last year. But last year still matters, as well as the years before that. There is continuity from year to year. Lots of things stay basically the same, and the Lakers (who were damned good last year, but not good enough) got even better this year.

Would they have won 70 games if they hadn't had all those injuries? Who knows? Who cares? The point is they are healthy now, and if that doesn't change, I like their chances. That doesn't make them a lock, and yes, it's even possible that a team from the east could win it all. But while that's understandable wishing for a Pacers fan, it's not smart money if you're a betting man. There's a reason why the Pacers are 8:1 in Vegas for winning it all, while the Lakers are 5:8 (and the top 4 teams odds-wise are all in the west). The Vegas odds makers aren't God, but they're damned capable at setting odds and they don't let the biases we fans have get in the way.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

There was an interview conducted by Chad Ford of ESPN.com and ESPN Insider with the Comish. One thing he mentioned that the league would like to do is turn the NBDL in to a minor league system full fledged. This would probably also lead to an expansion of the NBA draft. IMO, this could be a very good thing, as there are some guys in the NBA that aren't ready for the NBA you know? This will have to be negotiated with the union, but it could happen in 2005-06. It would also probably cause the NBDL to expand.