-

Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

Building floorstanding speakers into the wall? Am I crazy?


Best Answer Highplainsdakota , July 06 2014 - 07:42 PM

Hmm, that's where I'm going to have to just "do it wrong" I think.  I totally get what you're saying now, especially with multiple rows of seats, the front center (middle room) seat being the best.  In order for me to put a large screen in I can only sit so close (12' for a 135" diagonal nets me over 36 degree viewing angle).  The game room open behind has the benefit of seeing a large screen at a relative distance for passive watching (15-25').  I'm just trying to get the sound in the 3 and 1/2 walled "theater area" the best that I can, (Knowing it won't be nearly as good as a dedicated room).

 

Guess I can always pull a chair up in the middle of the room and recalibrate and see how close to great I can get.  Anyhow, I'm feeling lots better about the specifics on placement, speaker type, receiver - amp combinations, etc. Just have to get the receiver +/- amp figured out now.  Thanks

Go to the full post


  • Please log in to reply
53 replies to this topic

#21 of 54 Robert_J

Robert_J

    Lead Actor

  • 8,130 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 22 2000
  • Real Name:Robert
  • LocationMississippi

Posted July 04 2014 - 05:35 AM

Whoa.  Just read a lot of threads on DIY loudspeakers.   I'm not thinking that's for me.  The temperment of the crossovers seems too much for me to figure out at this time and doesn't seem as much of a guaranteed success.  I may tackle this later with more time.  Thanks for the options and input, however.  I guess I'm back to buying something....

Published design like I did.  That takes the crossover work out of it.  The only downside is that you don't get to audition them ahead of time.  For me, the speakers I've liked best have soft dome tweeters so that's why I went with the DIII design.

 

That link earlier to the DIY Sound Group kits are something I would try now if I needed new speakers.  A LOT of guys at AVS Forum are building and loving them.  There are a lot of proven designs for the Dayton RS drivers over at Home Theater Shack.  The experts of IB subs are over at the Cult of the Infinitely Baffled.  I don't like sending people to other forums but DIY is not very active here.

 

Sometimes you can find a great retail speaker where you would not expect it.  The Linkwitz Orion is very highly regarded in the DIY circles - http://www.linkwitzlab.com/ .  A few years ago in a head to head competition, A Behringer monitor available at Guitar Center beat it.  http://www.diyaudio....nger-what.html  Those monitors are available via Amazon for $199 each all day long.  Read some of the reviews.



#22 of 54 Robert_J

Robert_J

    Lead Actor

  • 8,130 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 22 2000
  • Real Name:Robert
  • LocationMississippi

Posted July 04 2014 - 05:42 AM

I re-read my long post and my link was auto deleted.  I know this forum needs advertisers but it goes a little overboard sometimes.  .parts-express.com/project-gallery-speaker-project-the-d-iii  Just add the www to the front of that and you will see my speakers.  The only difference is that mine have rounded edges and are painted with Krylon hammered metal.



#23 of 54 Highplainsdakota

Highplainsdakota

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 56 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 30 2014
  • Real Name:Brian

Posted July 04 2014 - 06:11 AM

Couple issues with the Magnepan:  "The MMG is less convincing with rock; it lacks the muscle to convey visceral power.", "The MMG works best in small, 250-square-foot or smaller rooms."  These quotes from the cnet article.  Also, I didn't see any small lefts, rights, centers, or surrounds.  It's probably too far into the 2.1 audiophile worlds than in a home theater with 2 year old kids.  Good possibilities though.



#24 of 54 Highplainsdakota

Highplainsdakota

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 56 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 30 2014
  • Real Name:Brian

Posted July 04 2014 - 06:33 AM

Ok Robert,

 

I'll check that out today.  I guess if you twisted my arm, I could build a set of loud speakers, and if the sound quality was sort of junk, I can use them in my shop and look for another solution to the home theater problem.  I'd prefer not to have an MTM design, as I'd like the tweeter to be ear level in my theater.  That parts-express thread lead me to multiple builds I can sort through and see if something is feasible.  Thanks for all the info.  I'll post again after some more research.

 

By the way, an extra thanks for sending me to the cult of the infinitely baffled!  Found everything else I needed there.  It's a credit to this forum really.



#25 of 54 schan1269

schan1269

    HTF Expert

  • 13,732 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 04 2012
  • Real Name:Sam
  • LocationChicago-ish/NW Indiana

Posted July 04 2014 - 06:37 AM

Couple issues with the Magnepan: "The MMG is less convincing with rock; it lacks the muscle to convey visceral power.", "The MMG works best in small, 250-square-foot or smaller rooms." These quotes from the cnet article. Also, I didn't see any small lefts, rights, centers, or surrounds. It's probably too far into the 2.1 audiophile worlds than in a home theater with 2 year old kids. Good possibilities though.

So, you base not giving Maggie a try because the smallest one lacks grunt.

Ok, pretend the MMG Super, 1.7 and 3.7 don't exist.

The 3.7 is considered the best speaker there is under $5000.

Every single other speaker by everyone else that has ever been reviewed against it...the 3.7 beat it.

The 1.7, considered 95% of a 3.7, is in your price range.

The MMG Super is what you would want, at minimum.

And these are perfect for kids. The MMG center, since you do want an AT screen, The panel would go right behind it...ear height.

The surrounds would hang ON THE WALL out of reach.

#26 of 54 Highplainsdakota

Highplainsdakota

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 56 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 30 2014
  • Real Name:Brian

Posted July 04 2014 - 08:27 AM

I don't know Schan1269;

 

I keep looking at them and there' just seems to be too many pitfalls.  Want the good Mags (1.7)?  They have to be 3' from the wall and tower 64.5" high, 19.25" wide.  That's a tough sell.  I'd probably even knock that over.  How do you keep people from pawing at it wondering what the hell it is? Like some kind of feng shui thing.  OK there's the MMGW.  I can't seem to find any specifications on this from Mangepan's website.  Except they suggest mounting two center channels as L/R of the screen?  My screen will be 110" wide.  If I put a vertical center channel to the left and right, then a 20" speaker to the left and right of that.  I think I'm pushing an 18" wide room to fit all those in.

 

"Which reminds me: Magnepan speakers are all power hogs, so figure at least 100 watts per channel, but the more the merrier. The quality of the watts is also crucially important, so I can't imagine the 1.7 sounding remotely good with a receiver." CNET.  Again, don't know what this means.  My receiver has 130 W per channel, but where do I get these "Crucially important" good watts?  The magnepan website refused to specify ideal wattage per speaker, essentially saying it's too hard to figure out and they've had customers happy with 50 W to 1000W.  WTF? 

 

They are really asking a lot of faith from customers.  These might be the greatest speakers in the world, or I might accidentally stick my finger though screen and ruin it because it's super fragile (have no idea), or my infinite baffle sub system will be "Too slow" for the magnepans as many seem to say (whatever that means).  Lots of questions...

 

Perhaps there's a dealer near me I could check out.  I'm just saying I could order a set of paradigm or bowers and wilkins towers and know what I'm getting, sight unseen.  I have no frame of reference for the magnepans.



#27 of 54 schan1269

schan1269

    HTF Expert

  • 13,732 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 04 2012
  • Real Name:Sam
  • LocationChicago-ish/NW Indiana

Posted July 04 2014 - 09:23 AM

That is why the 120 no questions asked home trial exists.

There is a guy here in Chicago with an AT wall(look up the 100s of variations of false wall for AT screens).

His entire front wall is acoustically transparent. The screen, itself, is 135". The wall is 14 by 8.5.

What are his speakers?

Quad ESL that stand 7' high. Three of them.

His IBs are three matching triple 18". Each manifold exits underneath each ESL.

The false wall is 4' deep with the ESL about 3" behind the screen/material. His frame work is 1" PVC

#28 of 54 schan1269

schan1269

    HTF Expert

  • 13,732 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 04 2012
  • Real Name:Sam
  • LocationChicago-ish/NW Indiana

Posted July 04 2014 - 09:31 AM

By the way. I used to have some SMG. I ran them, for years, on a Denon DRA 335.

The 335 isn't exactly a power house.

They are 4 ohm. What receiver you got?

If worried about ohm load...

Check out Zu. Those are 12-16 ohm and anywhere from 98 to 106 DB efficient.

They'll tear up your house on 130.

#29 of 54 Highplainsdakota

Highplainsdakota

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 56 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 30 2014
  • Real Name:Brian

Posted July 04 2014 - 12:05 PM

Currently I have an Integra 50.1 with 130 w per channel.  That' being said, I suppose I could get a new receiver if I'm going to splurge on higher end speakers.  I've always been a fan of buying all my components at the same time for ease of integration. 

 

I'll have to mess with my room design and see if I can incorporate a false wall easily.  How do you get behind the false wall.  Some sort of velcro on fabric, or a door of some sort?  I suppose I could put all my electronic components back there as well.  I don't suppose fabric breaks up IR signal does it?  Thanks for all the ideas.



#30 of 54 Robert_J

Robert_J

    Lead Actor

  • 8,130 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 22 2000
  • Real Name:Robert
  • LocationMississippi

Posted July 04 2014 - 12:07 PM

I haven't heard Magnepans since college during Music Appreciation or as it was known to the frat guys "nap time".

 

I'd prefer not to have an MTM design, as I'd like the tweeter to be ear level in my theater.

I thought you were building these into the walls?  Build your opening so the tweeters are at ear level.  Mine are within 1" of ear level for me when properly seated (which is rarely). 

 

Check out Zu. Those are 12-16 ohm and anywhere from 98 to 106 DB efficient.

Efficiency is why I want to check out some horn designs from DIY Sound Group.  My DIII's aren't efficient at all but they will get loud.  Club concert loud?  Depends on the blub.  Motley Crue arena loud?  Nope.  But my neighbors have heard my system when they are outside.



#31 of 54 Robert_J

Robert_J

    Lead Actor

  • 8,130 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 22 2000
  • Real Name:Robert
  • LocationMississippi

Posted July 04 2014 - 12:08 PM

I don't suppose fabric breaks up IR signal does it?

Depends on the fabric.  In your other thread I mentioned Harmony RF to IR remotes.  You could put your equipment 2 or 3 rooms away and your remote would still work.



#32 of 54 schan1269

schan1269

    HTF Expert

  • 13,732 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 04 2012
  • Real Name:Sam
  • LocationChicago-ish/NW Indiana

Posted July 04 2014 - 12:28 PM

The idea of the false wall is twofold...

You want hidden speakers...

You want an ear height center.

Truths here...

Your Integra has the grunt for Maggies.
If you chose to incorporate a 2 channel amp, You got preouts (the 50.1 would easily handle 5 MMG w/c, with the main two handled otherwise*)

The only wrinkle is you want your equipment behind the false wall. Most people build the false wall opposite the equipment.

Another thing you could do...

Build a riser for a 2nd row. The riser is your IB(You would flatten out the design...keeping the same overall volume).

Then the screen could be the opposite wall.

Nobody said you couldn't, essentially, sit on your IB. Since it would be IB, vibrations would be minimal.

*Depending on your speakers, room furnishings, you might want a dedicated 2 channel amp regardless of your chosen speakers. The 50.1 is certainly not a lightweight, but it isn't 130x7...

As an extra...
Your Integra has multiple crossovers. When playing .1 material the sub shouldn't be handed much information from the other 5/7 channels. If your main are set as low as 40(the lowest setting you got)...bass will already be bandied around the room equally...leaving the IB to beat the room silly...when needed.

#33 of 54 Highplainsdakota

Highplainsdakota

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 56 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 30 2014
  • Real Name:Brian

Posted July 04 2014 - 12:35 PM

So, I'd run two pre-amp out channels to another amp (2 channel?) then out to my L and R?  Or would I get more channels to also run my center?

 

I'm still looking into this AT wall idea.  I guess tweeter level doesn't really matter if I build them into the wall higher.  Lots to think about...



#34 of 54 schan1269

schan1269

    HTF Expert

  • 13,732 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 04 2012
  • Real Name:Sam
  • LocationChicago-ish/NW Indiana

Posted July 04 2014 - 12:51 PM

So, I'd run two pre-amp out channels to another amp (2 channel?) then out to my L and R? Or would I get more channels to also run my center?

Your choice. Every AVR has a finite amount of power. Onkyo/ Integra have an amp draw listed on the back. To figure out your power reserve...

Multiply amp by 120. Remove 100 for video*. Divide that result in 2(amp loss). That amount of power is divided between your 5 or 7 speakers. Won't be anywhere near 130.

I'm still looking into this AT wall idea. I guess tweeter level doesn't really matter if I build them into the wall higher. Lots to think about...


I added to the above post.

Whatever speakers you buy, try to buy 3 identical front speakers. Most stores will allow an odd number. Even Magnepan will sell an odd number of speakers. I'm sure somebody out there has a theater with 3 3.7 and 4 1.7. Bet it sounds thrilling.

*the owners manual might show a "pre amp mode" Power draw.

#35 of 54 Robert_J

Robert_J

    Lead Actor

  • 8,130 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 22 2000
  • Real Name:Robert
  • LocationMississippi

Posted July 05 2014 - 07:12 AM

Whatever speakers you buy, try to buy 3 identical front speakers.

That's why I built 3 of the same for my front stage.  I have parts to build 7 identical speakers right now.  I just need to complete about 16 other projects before my wife will let me start that one.



#36 of 54 Highplainsdakota

Highplainsdakota

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 56 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 30 2014
  • Real Name:Brian

Posted July 05 2014 - 10:04 AM

Any quick opinion adding a direct left / right speaker (7.2 system)?  Do most movies account for this speaker in their soundtrack or is this rarely used?  Will my receiver just "send some L/R sound" to those speakers if they're plugged in?  Finally, does voicing really matter for these for the amount of extra effect they produce?  I would rather save some money on these two particular speakers.



#37 of 54 schan1269

schan1269

    HTF Expert

  • 13,732 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 04 2012
  • Real Name:Sam
  • LocationChicago-ish/NW Indiana

Posted July 05 2014 - 10:16 AM

BD, and BD only, is starting to come along with 80% 7.1.

DD and DTS are only 5.1.

Otherwise, DPL IIx and DTS Neo are viable options.

I run 9.1 in my main theater. 7.1 + height. About(whenever it debuts) to buy the Onkyo 3030 and set up for both...

7.1 + height (9.1) and 7.1 + Atmos (11.1).

Not checked the specs(no concrete details) but if DTS Neo X is part of the package, will wire for that as well.

In other words...15 speakers in 9.1, and two variations of 11.1.

Intelligence Amp Design(yes, that is a feature) allows the connection of various speaker formations...and switch among them, on the fly.

If the 3030/5030(if there is a 5030) have 15 speaker terminals...I'll be in heaven.

Edited, miss counted. Arranging for DTS Neo X and Atmos combined is only 15 speakers...in total.

#38 of 54 Highplainsdakota

Highplainsdakota

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 56 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 30 2014
  • Real Name:Brian

Posted July 05 2014 - 12:57 PM

Ok.  This home theater I'm putting together will be mine for about 15 years...Should I be running speaker wire to front wide L/R, front high L/R, Center rear, ect. just in the event all movies start coming out with this broad of sound stage recorded?

 

If you had to choose, IN ORDER, which speakers to add to your system starting with 5.2, what would it be?  (I'll have plenty of sub with 4 x 18" IB setup):

 

1st: Direct Left/Right

2nd: Front high left/right

3rd: Front wide left/right

4th: ?

5th  ?!

 

Does that look about right?  This may affect the design of the room if I need to install a 45 degree angle to the front wall/ceiling interface for down facing in-wall/ceiling speakers.  I need to at least know where to run wires so they're there if I want to use them...

 

p.s.  I'm starting a thread in the amp section about my receiver/pre-amp/amp set up just so it's in the right area.  Need the help there too!  Again, I'm already very appreciative of the information I've received on here so far.  I dare say it's saved me a lot of money already despite buying better/more equipment!



#39 of 54 schan1269

schan1269

    HTF Expert

  • 13,732 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 04 2012
  • Real Name:Sam
  • LocationChicago-ish/NW Indiana

Posted July 05 2014 - 01:04 PM

I did not run in-Wall wiring in my theater...and I'm not doing in-ceiling Atmos. (By the way, Onkyo doesn't do DTS Neo X).

I haven't read the manual, yet(Not even possible to order it).

But, Onkyo introduced their own version of wide...since they dumped Audyssey.

The 3030 has 11 terminals. I might run a couple of speaker switch boxes. I have no idea If Atmos will work with DTS-HD(powers that be, aren't discussing it either). Currently the BD mix is 60% DTS-HD. So...40% of BD has Dolby True HD...and of that...how many "native" Atmos...

I also don't know...yet, If Aud/IIz "height" works for the front Atmos.

If not...I will run "both" spots with a speaker switch. (Although, have no idea If you will be able to choose IIz if you've set up Atmos).

All this falls back to DTS. Will those soundtracks work?

If not...I'll have some speaker switches and menu visiting going on.

(Meaning there are DTS-HD movies tailor made for "wide". And concert discs are wonderful in wide. If Atmos requires the non-inclusion of wide...I may have to enter the set up menu, disengage Atmos, to engage wide...

I, for one, am willing to do that)

#40 of 54 nara

nara

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 65 posts
  • Join Date: May 04 2012

Posted July 05 2014 - 02:10 PM

Am I crazy?


In a word? Yes.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users