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Dipole or Bipole for my 7.1 setup?


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#1 of 41 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted February 17 2014 - 06:20 AM

post-269895-0-76073200-1392542603_thumb.jpg

 

To date, I have had a 5.1 system.  My side surrounds were set to Dipole.

 

Look at the photo above.  It shows what my 7.1 system will look like in the next two days when I get the 2 additional speakers for the side.  

 

The side speakers will be located 3.5 feet from the couch on each side, a bit forward of listening position (not to exceed the front of the couch itself)

 

This is the most optimal arrangement I can do in the room without drilling holes.  All speakers will be on pole stands, at the same height.

 

 

Now....

 

The question is setting them up as Bipole or Dipole

 

I have been speaking to THX calibrator Gregg Loewen who informed me that if I use a Dipole setup, I would have to actually reverse the Left/Right rear wire connections.   So, if I understand correctly, Listening position LEFT would be wired REAR RIGHT to the receiver.

 

Rather than do all that, I figured why not just switch all the speakers to Bipole and then wire them as they should be wired.

 

However, I know each setting serves a specific purpose.

 

setup2.jpg

 

 

So here are my two questions...

 

1. Based on the picture above and the proposed setup should I do Bipole or Dipole?

2. If I do Bipole I am assuming I keep all speaker wiring connections to receiver according to listener's seated position Left/Right perspective?

3. If I do DiPole I need to switch the REAR channels only when wiring to the receiver?

 

Thanks as always!


 

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#2 of 41 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted February 17 2014 - 08:34 AM

I'm pretty sure Greg meant "swap left-right" on the speaker itself. Not changing the terminals on the AVR.

Bi-pole is both sides doing the same thing, at the same time. Both push, or both pull. Essentially taking two speakers and putting them back to back.

Di-pole is one side push, the other side pull...technically, cancelling each other out.

Di-pole creates a dead spot at the speaker, so all you get, in a sense, is back wave off the wall.

I would not set the 4/5 up as di-pole since there is no wall for the back wave.

#3 of 41 OFFLINE   Gregg Loewen

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Posted February 17 2014 - 09:22 AM

 

'm pretty sure Greg meant "swap left-right" on the speaker itself. Not changing the terminals on the AVR. 

yup

 

I would 100% recommend dipole in Ron's configuration because of the closeness of his listening position to each of the surrounds. 


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#4 of 41 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted February 17 2014 - 09:22 AM

Caveat: I don't use di-pole, ever...

The 6/7 speakers, If done di-pole...should be mounted 7/6, but still wired 6/7.

Keeps them from cancelling 4/5.

#5 of 41 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted February 17 2014 - 09:33 AM

So, for 7.1...in his room...

All di, or bi and di?

I've always assumed di had to be wall wanted. Bi, didn't have the requirement.

I've also never seen anybody use bi and di together.

Keeping in mind I'm a "music first" theatre person.

Music first=never uses di-pole.

#6 of 41 OFFLINE   Greg Bright

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Posted February 17 2014 - 09:39 AM

My 7.1 setup is very similar to yours. I run the sides bipole, and they are wall mounted at 6'. The rears are direct radiators against the rear wall 1' in from the corners at 7'. And they are 5' behind the listening position. Very, very happy with the results. Since the advent of DD, et al, I just haven't understood the need for dipole.


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#7 of 41 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted February 17 2014 - 09:55 AM

You know what?

For the ease alone of not having to rephase the speakers, why don't

I just run them as Bi-pole.

 

Would I really hear a significant difference?


 

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#8 of 41 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2014 - 09:57 AM

Gregg's rec of 100% dipole sounds logical to me.  Besides, I'm not about to challenge his knowledge.   I have a side surround speaker in my setup mounted to a pole, not a wall, and running dipole and I also wondered if that lack of a wall would make it disappear, but it doesn't.  It works fine.


The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#9 of 41 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2014 - 09:59 AM

 

 

Would I really hear a significant difference?

 

 

With the close proximity to the speakers, I think it will.


The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#10 of 41 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted February 17 2014 - 10:03 AM

Okay...but nobody seems to agree what is best.

 

I can do Di-Pole, but I still don't understand the phasing that has to be done.

 

I did misquote Gregg Loewen, and I apologize.  He told me I misunderstood what 

he said (and Schan caught that).  However, Gregg is very busy right now and promised

he would get back to me with the exact process he was referring to.

 

I'm pretty sure Greg meant "swap left-right" on the speaker itself. Not changing the terminals on the AVR. 

 

This I don't quite understand.  Under strictly a Di-Pole configuration in 7.1 am I switching

positions of the speakers where they should normally be (put right speaker on left side

and left speaker on right side) or am I just reversing the inputs on the receiver (plugging

left wires into right speaker input and right wires into left speaker input)?

 

By the way...thanks for the help, guys.  This is interesting stuff for me.


 

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#11 of 41 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2014 - 10:09 AM

I think this is what Gregg is talking about.  Normally connected, a pair of dipole speakers on the same wall would be phased... in-out-in-out going from left to right.  Either that or out-in-out-in.  I suspect what Gregg wants is in-out-out-in, which would require ONE of them to be connected with the phase reversed.  Some surround speakers actually have options for dipole left and dipole right, which is probably to accomplish the same thing.  That's my guess anyway, because I have a pair of surround speakers which have the left-right option.


The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#12 of 41 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted February 17 2014 - 10:19 AM

John,

 

The speakers in question are the Atlantic Technology 2400SRs

 

sm_1400_SR_BLK_front_ng.jpg

 

They only have one switch on the back to select Dipole or Bipole.

 

No phasing options.


 

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#13 of 41 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2014 - 10:27 AM

Yeah, most don't have a left/right option.  You probably want to wait for confirmation from Gregg, but I do think that is what he is recommending, and it makes sense.  If you reverse the +/- on one of the rear speakers when they are running dipole, that would accomplish the same thing as having the left/right option.  I don't know if it makes a big difference, but close proximity to surround speakers makes things more critical.  Only Gregg can really confirm if this is what he means.


The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#14 of 41 OFFLINE   Gregg Loewen

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Posted February 17 2014 - 10:45 AM

hi guys

 

Ron, on the back of the surround speaker it will say left or right.

 

In 5.1.

 

the left labelled speaker will be the left surround and the right labelled speaker will be the right surround (meaning side speakers).

 

in 7.1....when adding 2 rear speakers.

 

the Left rear speaker will be a speaker that is labelled Right.  You will run the speaker wires from the back of the AVR, for the left rear SR.

The right rear speaker will be a speaker that is labelled left.   You will run the speaker wires from the back of the AVE, for the Right rear SR

 

By doing the above, you will be keeping the speakers in phase with each other. All speakers will be wired with red for positive and black for negative. 


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#15 of 41 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted February 17 2014 - 10:46 AM

Heya, Gregg!

 

 

You are right.  One of the speakers says L on it the other R.

 

All I am doing is just switching the speaker positions (R for L and L for R)

but keeping the wiring as it should be.

 

...and run everything in DiPole (including side speakers)

 

Are we good on that?


 

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#16 of 41 OFFLINE   Gregg Loewen

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Posted February 17 2014 - 10:51 AM

yup


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#17 of 41 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted February 17 2014 - 10:53 AM

Gregg, thank you so much!  


 

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#18 of 41 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2014 - 10:57 AM

Well, it was a guess.

 

Gregg, if you are still here, when you say the left speaker is connected to the right connection, which way are you facing?  I always thought that rear left meant left when facing the TV, so right when facing the wall.  Is that the same thing you were saying?


The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#19 of 41 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2014 - 10:59 AM

I only ask because my rear surround speakers are selectable as L or R, rather then being hard wired that way.  Which makes me wonder if I have them set backwards, since I have the left when facing the TV set to left and so on with the right.


The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#20 of 41 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted February 17 2014 - 11:00 AM

That is what I was trying to convey with swapping 6/7 for 7/6.

It would help if all the bi/ di-pole speakers just had arrows.

4/5 point to the front of the room.
6/7 point to each other(cause if you simply slid 4/5 back to 6/7...they'd point to the corners, not at each other).




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