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A couple more questions


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#1 of 24 Raptor382

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Posted September 18 2013 - 08:01 AM

When doing the crawl, where should your sub be located? I've heard that you should place it in your seating position, in your chair or on the couch. I also read that you should move your couch and put the sub in that spot. Which is correct? On the couch, or on the floor where the couch would be?

Next, what exactly does the ypao calibration do? Is it just setting distances and levels or does it do more? I'm thinking I may get an spl meter and optimize that way. When I do my calibration, it does all the distances and levels and sets my parametric eq to ypao flat. Is that generally the best setting or can you get better sound by adjusting the eq yourself? If doing it manually is better, is there a guide on how to set it up? Is it a matter of just adjusting it til it sounds good or is there a certain way to adjust it using measurements and such, with a meter?

Lastly, if I go the spl meter route, do the iPhone spl apps work or is an actual spl meter the way to go?

Thanks

#2 of 24 schan1269

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Posted September 18 2013 - 08:18 AM

Sub crawl is the subwoofer sitting in your chair or couch. Wherever the "sweet spot" is. Can you put your sub there? 

 

YPAO does a good job. If you have identical speakers, it is the best room correction there is...in the commercial units(leaving out Trinnov and ARC...Anthem's room correction...not the "HDMI thing").

 

The settings you have a choice between are there because...

 

1. Not every room is the same.

2. You don't hear the same way I do.

3. You don't have the same listening likes I do.

 

Meaning...I might like the EQ flat. Maybe you want a hotter bass response than it provides. Neither of us is right. Neither of us is wrong.

 

I always use this...

http://www.audiocheck.net/

 

The website is built around a particular SPL meter. Which one is there on the website. If your computer has HDMI, use that. If not, burn a CD.



#3 of 24 schan1269

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Posted September 18 2013 - 08:20 AM

Oh yeah, if your sub isn't playing nice with where you have to put it...and where it "should go" is not feasible(it happens)...

 

http://www.dspeaker....mode-8033.shtml



#4 of 24 Raptor382

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Posted September 19 2013 - 07:33 PM

So, I have faux hardwood floors. I'm thinking of getting an area rug, one that just covers the area from the front of my tv stand to the front of my couch. What kind of sound change can I expect?

From what I understand, it should be a good change. I guess with hard wood floors, the room echos too much, which is a bad thing for audio I suppose, by adding a rug, it will absorb some of those echos and make the sound better?

Along with that, is it a good idea to place a patch of carpet under all my speakers, including the sub?

Thank you

#5 of 24 schan1269

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Posted September 19 2013 - 07:52 PM

That all depends on the room construction.

 

My living room(40x40) is reclaimed hardwood. Underneath the hardwood is a foam noise barrier.

 

http://www.soundproo...tical_foam.html



#6 of 24 Raptor382

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Posted September 20 2013 - 02:59 AM

Well, I'd have to ask the property manager, but, I think this is basically just the faux wood on concrete.  I'm sure there may be some other material, but i dont think they have any noise proofing materials under it.

 

The reason I am thinking about this is for 1) comfort, and 2) talking to someone who told me about a "live" room.  They said stand in the middle of your room and clap your hands.  If you can hear the echo, or if the sound is open and bright or something like that, then you have a live room.  They said that putting down an area rug can make a big change and will make everything sound better.

 

This kind of makes sense.  Having hard wood floors would just be another surface that sound waves can bounce off of.  Putting down a rug would give some absorption area.



#7 of 24 Raptor382

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Posted September 21 2013 - 05:34 PM

ok, a few changes.  got the sub in and hooked it up.  today i went out and got a 5' 3" X 7' 7" area rug and a non slip pad to go under it, hoping to correct some of the room acoustic issues.  I guess im going to have to do more because I still have an echo when i clap my hands and you can hear it when you speak loudly.  I may have to look into hanging drapes or get some acoustic panels or bass traps.

 

So, I put the padding and rug down, then I moved my couch and coffee table out of the way and placed the sub where the couch used to be.  I didnt want to put the sub ON the couch as the sub is a down firing sub and i felt that putting it on the couch would make it sink into the couch and interfere with the woofer movement.  I didnt have a piece of wood or anything to place between the couch and the sub, and I didnt want to risk the sub tipping off the couch and hitting the floor.  I did watch the sub crawl video from Axiom audio and he suggested to move the listening chair and put the sub in that place, which is what i did.

 

I downloaded Bass Mekaniks test tones from itunes, as well as money for nothing and put them on my iphone and used it as my source material.  Hooked the iphone up to the AVR and started playing 70Hz to about 45Hz tones.  I didnt want to use 80hz as this is my crossover area and would end up hearing the bass from all the speakers, and for this I just wanted to hear bass from the sub only.  Unfortunately, this proved difficult as, while i could hear the 70 and 60 hz tones from my sub, I could also hear them from my center channel, but I continued anyway.

 

I noticed that where I originally had my sub, to the left of my TV, between the TV stand and the left speaker, was apparently not the ideal place, as the bass i heard there was not very loud.  Due to the fact that my living room only has 3 walls, and one of them is covered with my TV stand and front speakers, this left only the right wall (which has doors that open to a patio), and the rear wall behind my couch. 

 

As I moved around, I noticed that one place, on the right wall just in front of my main speaker was a good place, but it seemed that the best bass I was getting was right behind my couch, next to the right surround speaker, so this ended up being the place I put the sub.

 

I wonder, however, if this is still inaccurate, as, while i was doing the crawl, my couch wasn't there, so, that being the place with the best bass with my couch out of the way, I wonder if it ends up NOT being the best place once I put my couch back.

 

Anyway, this is where I set everything up.  After this, I ran my YPAO.  I had the sub at about 5 on the volume level.  After running the test, I noticed that it set my sub at -10dB and its distance was set to 7.2 feet.  This is odd because the sub is about 2 feet behind me, if that.

 

I know bass is non directional, but, is putting the sub behind the couch going to cause the measurment results to be wrong for the sub?  Most people say that if you have any obstacles between the speaker and the mic that it will not measure properly, and the couch is between the sub and the mic, but if bass is non directional, this shouldnt matter, correct?

 

So, i dialed the sub volume down to about 3.5 and ran the test again, this time, it set the sub level at -5dB, but the distance was still the same.

 

In the end, it sounds good, granted, i went ahead and upped the sub level from -5dB to +1.0dB (to make the bass stronger), but I left the distance at 7.2ft, as I figured that the distance measurement would affect the sound timing and such and didnt want the sub to be out of timing.

 

The one issue that i'm having (and have had since i put this system together) is that, in movies, the dialogue can be hard to hear sometimes.  When there are quiet scenes and people are speaking quietly, it is hard to hear them, I can turn the volume up and it helps a little, but I would think that the center channel speaker would be putting out more volume than this.

 

I'm wondering if where i have my center placed is the problem.  I have a TV stand, which has 2 glass shelves and is open on the back.  The TV sits on top and the center sits on the first shelf underneath.

 

My TV stand kind of looks like this:  http://www.walmart.c...-Black/27436853  but mine is a fake wood on the top and sides.

 

Anyway, not really any place else to put my center...unless I mount it on a shelf above the TV and I wonder if this would be a better option than underneath the TV.  Thoughts?

 

Anyway, I may have to start looking into some sort of wall covering or acoustic material that I can put up that will look somewhat decent, and not make my living room look odd (like a recording studio).

 

anyway, as far as my sub placement, is behind the couch an odd place to put it?  the only thing im worried about with it here is that, since the floors are hard, that the couch might slide and push up against the sub and bang it or crush it (it shouldnt, its a sturdy sub, but...).  I need to find something I can put under the legs of the couch to keep it from sliding i guess.

 

anyway, i'd love to hear some ideas to get the dialogue from movies to be better.  is it as simple as just turning up the level on the center channel?

 

and lastly, what is the best mode in which to listen to music.  I can listen in 7 channel stereo, or one of the sound processing modes (hall, club etc...), or i can choose pro logic, PLII, neo:6 cinema/music etc...  7ch stereo generally sounds the best, but i wonder if the PL modes are useful in ANY music, or is it like movies, it has to be recorded in PLII in order for it to sound good having the AVR set to that mode?  Also, the "enchancer mode".  It seems to boost the sound in music, making bass feel deeper and giving better all around sound, but I wonder if this is a false sense of "sound", if, while in that mode, im missing any surround effects in music, such as panning and fading and such, or if i'll be missing any sound while using the 7ch mode and/or enchancer mode as opposed to a pro logic mode, without the enchancer.  What kind of experiences have you folks had with using other sound modes or sound altering options?

 

by the way, here is a picture of my living room now.  the black "sub" next to the TV is the old location, the green box behind the sitting area is the new location....normal to have it here or needs a better placement?

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#8 of 24 Raptor382

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Posted September 21 2013 - 05:37 PM

wow, sorry so long winded! lol



#9 of 24 schan1269

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Posted September 21 2013 - 06:12 PM

You are way overturning this. No it is not uncommon to place the sub near the couch.

Did you try any of the Yamaha dialog settings?

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#10 of 24 Raptor382

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Posted September 22 2013 - 07:47 AM

hmm, i was just thinking about something.  i have the outlaw audio lfm-1+, my old subwoofer is the klipsch rpw10.  the klipsch sub only goes down to 35Hz and has a 400w/200w amplifer.  Could I use this klipsch as a second subwoofer?  maybe as a mid bass module?  would it work or would the difference in amp power and output cause things to sound unbalanced?



#11 of 24 Robert_J

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Posted September 22 2013 - 08:05 AM

Just because your sub is downfiring doesn't mean you have to position it that way. Put it on your couch firing up and you will actually get better results since the driver will be closer to ear level.

Your receiver's EQ probably doesn't do anything for the sub. I'm still using the EQ method that was talked about here 6 or 7 years ago. I use a Behringer Feedback Destroyer as the EQ, an SPL meter & test tones for measurement and an Excel spreadsheet for modelling the in room response.

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#12 of 24 schan1269

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Posted September 22 2013 - 08:06 AM

That is why things come with volume/gain controls. It would take a 2000/4000 watt amp to make a noticeable volume difference over the Klipsch. Using it MBM could be usefull. Sent from my LG-P769 using HTF mobile app

#13 of 24 gene c

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Posted September 22 2013 - 08:22 AM

These room correction things set the speakers distances pretty spot-on but the subwoofers aren't set by distance alone so the Delay (Distance) setting is usually different then the actual distance for subwoofers. My subs are about 3.2' away but both MCACC and Audyssey set them to around 6'.

 

An area rug should improve the sound on a hardwood floor in most cases but it may be minimal. I was going to put laminate flooring in my livingroom but was concerned about my equipment sliding all over the place if we have another shaker (earthquake country). It's been at least a couple of years since I've felt one but it's something we always have to think about when making these decisions out here. Plus, my room seems to be pretty bright anyway.

 

Most people re-set the volumes on the subwoofer and center channel to suit personal taste but one volume setting never satisfies all situations. I keep the remote handy and know where the speaker volume button is by heart. Like Sam said, play with the Audio Adjustments found on Yamaha receivers and see if any of them help. Pioneers have a Dialog Enchancement which is pretty effective at low volumes. Some people also angle the center channel up (or down) to try and improve things.

 

I have my subs next to my couch under the end tables. I bought two identicle ones (the original 10" Dayton Mighty-Mites from PE) because the closer the sub(s) is to your seating area the more localized it seems to be. But, as the saying goes, if it sounds good to you it is good.

 

Most people listen to music in the form it was mixed in. But some use PLII or Neo:6 which can sound fairly decent to me until I listen to a true 5.1 disc. PLII does offer adjustments like Panaramic and Dimention which can help a little. I listen to stereo music in Pure Analog but I went to great lengths (at more expense then I care to think about) to find speakers that sound good to me in my room without any equalization. These other Surround Sound Modes like Hall and Jazz are all based off the ProLogic DSP chip (I think). Most of us pretty much ignore them but there was one on a Pioneer 1014 that I had many years ago that i remember liking. Can't remember what it was though.

 

I would stick to the basics at first until you become more familiar with what your equipment can do, at which point your like/dislikes may differ from what they are today anyway.


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#14 of 24 schan1269

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Posted September 22 2013 - 08:29 AM

Exactly what Gene says. If you don't like the sound "pre-EQ", you aren't going to like it afterwards either(just eq, not talking about identical volume).

I'm used to dealing with people buying 1 speaker that costs more than your entire theater.

The one I'm working on now?

Zu Audio (probably the Druid for main channel)
Integra pre-pro
7 mono tube amps of around 4 watts each.

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#15 of 24 Type A

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Posted September 22 2013 - 08:38 AM

Drapes wont really help your acoustic issues except for maybe the highest frequencies and carpeting under speakers will only help reduce vibrations (decoupling effect) and will do little for the bulk of your reflections. Also a rug under your sub wont be of any benefit besides decoupling.  You need thicker material,  4" OC 703 for the first and second reflection points and 4" (6" or 8" is even better) for bass traps in the corners.   You want to keep speakers as far away from reflective surfaces as possible, is your center pushed back into your stand?  If so pull it all the way out to the front edge.  Is it close to the floor?  If so angle it up and get it up away from the floor as much as possible.  If practical, and it gives you better clearance from surfaces, the center can go above the display.  Theres a fine line between keeping your speakers as close to ear level as possible and avoiding reflective surfaces.   Its strange the Yammy is placing your subs at the wrong distance, my YPAO is spot-on for distance.

 

As indicated in your manual "Enhancer" is designed to improve low bitrate stuff like Pandora or low-level mp3 rips and such.  Ive found that it does improve the low quality stuff but I rarely use it myself as my speakers are pretty unforgiving for low quality stuff and even the enhancer doesnt help enough for my tastes.  I suppose it might come in handy if you have alot of rips in low quality.  


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#16 of 24 schan1269

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Posted September 22 2013 - 08:47 AM

Oh yeah, about the YPAO.

Did you sit the Mic on something...or use a tripod?

Hint:
You are supposed to use a tripod.

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#17 of 24 Raptor382

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Posted September 22 2013 - 09:34 AM

 Its strange the Yammy is placing your subs at the wrong distance, my YPAO is spot-on for distance.

 

When i had the sub in the front of the room, YPAO was pretty accurate for its' distance, but when I put it behind the couch, that's when it changed.

 

Did you sit the Mic on something...or use a tripod?
 

 

I dont have a tri-pod, but what i did do was, I put about a 2.5 foot high carboard box on my couch, on top of that I put a 1 liter soda bottle with about a 1.5 inch cap, about the same size as the base of the ypao mic, and I placed the mic on top of that.  This was as close as I got to a tri-pod, and put the mic at pretty close to ear level.

 

On the Klipsch woofer, im assuming that the AVR only has one crossover, so, leave it on 80Hz, with the crossover on the main sub bypassed, and then just adjust the crossover on the klipsch sub all the way down to 35Hz?  Will this cause the bass from 35-80Hz to be really strong, and then 35Hz and below will drop off?  I can adjust the gain control on the main sub to make it louder, but wouldnt that make the mid bass even stronger between the 35-80Hz range, and thus exaggerating the drop off below 35Hz even more?

 

How should I go about setting the crossovers?

 

Robert, thanks for that tip, I may try that next weekend, pointing the sub up and do the crawl again.

 

TypeA, thanks for the tips, I had hoped that putting an area rug down would help absorb some of those reflections, but I guess in order to get good acoustic neutrality, i'll have to invest in some acoustic panels, and some bass traps.  Question, do they make any panels and traps that blend in well with the walls and ceiling?  Or at least, do they make them where you can put them up easily when you want to watch a movie, and then remove them and store them when not in use? Can you use any type of foam, or some other material for traps and panels, or does it need to be a specific type?

 

What is the best way to find the reflection points?  I'm assuming corners?  However, is there a good device or software that can tell you exactly where you need to put the bass traps and acoustic panels?



#18 of 24 schan1269

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Posted September 22 2013 - 09:44 AM

You are backwards on the subwoofer crossover. The one that does play down below 30, set that one low. Set the Klipsch at 80. If you don't understand the crossover, you can't do anything.

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#19 of 24 schan1269

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Posted September 22 2013 - 09:47 AM

Since you apparently don't understand the difference between the .1 crossover and the "everything else" crossover...

 

The .1 is "whatever you set" and under.

The "everything else" is above whatever you set.

 

Cause bass management 050(cause this isn't even 101) works this way...

 

You set a crossover for 2/3/5/7/9/11 and your .1.

 

You pick the THX standard 80. Your 2/3/5/7/9/11 pass off everything under 80 to the .1. If there is anything over 80hz in your .1, then it passes that, equally, between your 2/3/5/7/9/11.



#20 of 24 Type A

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Posted September 22 2013 - 09:56 AM

Blending panels and traps into the room decor is definitely a challenge.  Foam is ineffective.  Youll want to use OC703 (compressed fiberglass insulation panels) or rockwool.  You can purchase these panels already covered or the raw panels and cover them yourself with a material of your choice.  ATS acoustics sells both, Ive only done the DIY method.   You can also get artistic coverings from sites like this:

 

http://www.acoustima...sample-kit-art/

 

 

As for installing them and easily removing them thats pretty easy.  Ceiling treatments wont be easy but reflection points and bass traps can just be put into position before and easily removed after.  My traps and absobers are just kinda sitting there.

 

You can use a mirror to determine your reflection points, google it.   You can google and youtube search how to build and install bass traps, theres lots of instruction out there on how to treat your room.

 

Real traps is a wealth of info with a long list of instructional videos:

 

http://realtraps.com/howto.htm

 

http://realtraps.com/videos.htm


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