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#1 of 36 Raptor382

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Posted September 07 2013 - 12:23 PM

Hi, so, after reading an article on the HSU subs, im leaning toward one of them.  SVS just is too far out of my price range, as is Axiom.  The primus PS312 just didnt appear to be as good as the HSU subs.

 

this will be paired with a  pair of Primus 363 mains, P163 surrounds, and PC351 center.

 

the only other options i think would work would be the outlaw subs.

 

granted, the outlaw LFM subs were also designed in conjunction with HSU.

 

So, these are the options im looking at, a little help would be appreciated:

 

HSU VTF-2 MK4:

 

Price:  $529

Power:  BASH 1000W short term - 250W continuous

Speakers:  12" down firing with 2 rear ports (that can be plugged)

Freq. Resp.:  18Hz ported or 25Hz ported or sealed

SPL:  appears to be in the range of 110-118 dB (depending on configuration)

Warranty:  7 years on woofer, 2 years on electronics

 

Outlaw Audio:

 

LFM-1 Plus:

 

Price:  $549

Power:  1300W peak - 350W RMS

Speakers:  Down firing 12" Long throw (ports can be plugged)

Freq. Resp.: 25 Hz (w/o port plug), 18Hz (w/port plug)

SPL:  115 dB

Warranty: 3 year parts and labor on both amplifier and driver

 

LFM 1 - EX:

 

Price:  $649

Power:  350W RMS

Speakers:  Down firing 12" long throw (ports can be plugged)

Freq. Resp.:  16Hz (w/1 port plugged), 22Hz (w/ no port plugged)

SPL:  118 dB

Warranty:  3 year parts and labor on both amplifier and driver

 

Anyway, the prices can be worked around a bit as, while the HSU is a cheaper price, you pay for shipping, whereas the Outlaw subs have free shipping.  Also, im not real sure about down firing subs, ive read (like all opinions) mixed reviews.  Some people say they sound "muddy", some say the fact that they are always 2-3" from the ground that you dont have to worry about how close you put them to walls and such. 

 

I have heard that one advantage to a down firing sub is that it helps to remove the directionality of it, it will make the bass less likely to localize.

 

Being my apartment has a faux hard wood floor surface, but under i believe it is a concrete surface, how will the sound be affected.  Will it be "boomy", or will it bounce around and not be as good?  Would the addition of a Subdude or GRAMMA make the sub sound better (their site claims that those products remove any resonance and give better tonal quality).

 

Also, for people who have hard floors, is it better to place your speakers on carpet patches?  I've wondered about my P363 mains and surrounds (the P163's will be on metal stands).  The P363's have floor spikes, would i be better off putting them on pieces of carpet or just leave them on the hard floor?  Same with my surround speakers on the stands.

 

I'm thinking of getting an area run for my living room.  One that would basically extend from the front of the TV stand and end in front of my couch.  How would that change the way my speakers sound? 

 

Also, i was reading that invterview with Dr. Hsu and he said that if he were to build a system from scratch, he wouldnt get floor standing speakers, with a good sub, he would go with mini monitors.  Says that with a good sub, there is no need for the bass of a floorstanding speaker and that mini monitors give better imaging.  Is this true?

 

And lastly...speaker orientation.  Better to have the mains and surrounds pointing straight out, or have them turned in a little?  Is there a sound difference or is it just preference?

 

Thanks



#2 of 36 schan1269

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Posted September 07 2013 - 12:37 PM

Don't know where you've been reading there is a difference between down-firing or front-firing(or even the "odd" side firing... :rolleyes: )

 

But there is absolutely no difference...at all. Pure cosmetics. Back when Cerwin Vega had their gorgeous spun aluminum driver, I laughed at people who stuck in a band-pass box.

 

If your sub is "boomy"...move it. Period.

 

If you have hardwood floors...put any sub you buy on an area rug. If you have to.



#3 of 36 schan1269

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Posted September 07 2013 - 12:40 PM

And...

 

"Also, i was reading that invterview with Dr. Hsu and he said that if he were to build a system from scratch, he wouldnt get floor standing speakers, with a good sub, he would go with mini monitors.  Says that with a good sub, there is no need for the bass of a floorstanding speaker and that mini monitors give better imaging.  Is this true?"

 

For dedicated home theater...sure. His opinion. Is he more expert than I am, you bet.

 

But I also listen to SACD/DVD-A. I laugh at you if you suggest you can get away with bookshelf speakers on a properly setup SACD/DVD-A listening room.

 

By the way, I demo'd a set of Vandersteen the other day using Dark Side of the Moon(Hi-Res). The customer goes...

 

"Can we try that without the subwoofer?"

 

I said..."What subwoofer? I bypassed it"



#4 of 36 FoxyMulder

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Posted September 07 2013 - 12:53 PM

And...

 

"Also, i was reading that invterview with Dr. Hsu and he said that if he were to build a system from scratch, he wouldnt get floor standing speakers, with a good sub, he would go with mini monitors.  Says that with a good sub, there is no need for the bass of a floorstanding speaker and that mini monitors give better imaging.  Is this true?"

 

For dedicated home theater...sure. His opinion. Is he more expert than I am, you bet.

 

But I also listen to SACD/DVD-A. I laugh at you if you suggest you can get away with bookshelf speakers on a properly setup SACD/DVD-A listening room.

 

By the way, I demo'd a set of Vandersteen the other day using Dark Side of the Moon(Hi-Res). The customer goes...

 

"Can we try that without the subwoofer?"

 

I said..."What subwoofer? I bypassed it"

 

It all depends on your room size, for large rooms i would go for floorstanders but for small rooms i believe good quality stand mounted speakers makes perfect sense, yes you can get away with bookshelf speakers on a properly setup listening room, if you have a good subwoofer even more so.

 

At the end of the day the room plays a huge part in the sound quality, it can suck the life out of the sound coming from your speakers, audio calibration should be a must for serious home listening, this involves a sound pressure level meter to monitor the sound levels at various frequencies, i'm certain most people will find room modes an issue, they need fixing, you can't do this by ear, fix the room modes, make sure the speakers and subwoofer are in the best possible space in your room and only then will you get great sound.

 

Of course people use Audyssey and YPAO and MCACC, guess what, they will boost and cut at certain frequencies, better to have your own meter and see how the room is interacting with the sound, i moved my subwoofer literally one small inch, guess what, it had a huge impact on sound, i had a null at the position i had it, just small movements, sometimes centimeters can have a hugely positive impact on sound quality, placing your speakers nearer to you can help with room modes, the further away the worse they can be, all depends on the room.


Edited by FoxyMulder, September 07 2013 - 12:59 PM.

     :Fun Movie Quotes:

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"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

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#5 of 36 schan1269

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Posted September 07 2013 - 01:43 PM

The only real contention I have with Hsu's comment over "better imaging"...

 

He seems to act like woofer manufacture is stuck in the dark ages. The move to "multiple 5-6 inch drivers" has been predicated by slimmer towers. Nothing more. Anyone who begs to say "multiple 6 inch drivers is more accurate than one 12 inch"...

 

Then why are enormous subwoofers not loaded with 20 6" drivers? If that were the case...the Bose 901 would be the best speaker ever made...and Ohm Walsh and Zu would be the snake oil.



#6 of 36 FoxyMulder

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Posted September 07 2013 - 01:53 PM

The only real contention I have with Hsu's comment over "better imaging"...

 

He seems to act like woofer manufacture is stuck in the dark ages. The move to "multiple 5-6 inch drivers" has been predicated by slimmer towers. Nothing more. Anyone who begs to say "multiple 6 inch drivers is more accurate than one 12 inch"...

 

Then why are enormous subwoofers not loaded with 20 6" drivers? If that were the case...the Bose 901 would be the best speaker ever made...and Ohm Walsh and Zu would be the snake oil.

 

The Paradigm Sub 2 uses six 10 inch drivers, they are better than two 15 inch subwoofers, more efficient at their job, the principle of more smaller drivers against one large driver is actually a good one, now 6 inch drivers, no too small, 8 inch drivers can work as the Paradigm Sub 1 uses six of them and does so very effectively.


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

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#7 of 36 schan1269

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Posted September 07 2013 - 02:07 PM

I chose 6" on purpose. There are numerous IB subs out there with 8" and 10".

 

And I bet Robert could build a better sub, for less money, with two 15" drivers than the Sub 2.

 

I forget who it is, but there is a ridiculously expensive 18" woofer out there...and counting the cone/surround material only(cause the magnet ruins the comparison) it is lighter than pretty much every 15" out there the same price(to make the comparison fair...a cheap 15" isn't going to be light anyway).

 

Light is what makes a driver accurate. Not the fact it is smaller than the one next to it. Mere physics here, but in no way would I expect a 3-way crossover loudspeaker with "an equal multi-woofer area" come close to the bass note of the loudspeaker with the one larger same area woofer.

 

I would expect cone material weighs less than surround material. So...wouldn't one 15" woofer have less surround material than multiple 6"?



#8 of 36 FoxyMulder

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Posted September 07 2013 - 02:18 PM

I chose 6" on purpose. There are numerous IB subs out there with 8" and 10".

 

And I bet Robert could build a better sub, for less money, with two 15" drivers than the Sub 2.

 

I forget who it is, but there is a ridiculously expensive 18" woofer out there...and counting the cone/surround material only(cause the magnet ruins the comparison) it is lighter than pretty much every 15" out there the same price(to make the comparison fair...a cheap 15" isn't going to be light anyway).

 

Light is what makes a driver accurate. Not the fact it is smaller than the one next to it. Mere physics here, but in no way would I expect a 3-way crossover loudspeaker with "an equal woofer area" come close to the bass note of the loudspeaker with the one larger same area woofer.

 

I would expect cone material weighs less than surround material. So...wouldn't one 15" woofer have less surround material than multiple 6"?

 

I would put the Paradigm with it's six 10inch drivers up against any 18inch subwoofer and i bet it would sound better, i remember reading articles on the reason why smaller subwoofers stacked together sound better than one large subwoofer on it's own, i think they produce tighter bass with less distortion and the more of them the more low bass extension you get, they go very low too, take a look at the subwoofer below, i can't afford it.

 

http://www.rotarywoofer.com/


Edited by FoxyMulder, September 07 2013 - 02:21 PM.

     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


#9 of 36 schan1269

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Posted September 07 2013 - 02:37 PM

I've seen the rotary many times. I've also seen, in person, the "sound experiment" of the "semi-trailer subwoofer"...(for one of the armed forces).

 

 6 10" woofers vs 18" still comes down to overall mass for accuracy purposes. And 6 10" is greater than one 18". The idea of multiple woofers, believe it or not, was born from the idea of multi-valve engines.

 

Take one large valve and then repeat the area using 4 valves instead. 4 valves are easier to control. And you get the idea of multiple valve runners and cam profiles(which you could even do with subwoofers...technically).

 

Lets say you have a subwoofer with multiple 6". In theory, you could shut off half of them depending on volume required...or note being produced...further reducing distortion. Or you could even make it where 1 worked, then 2 worked...then 3 worked...doing different frequencies. Of course you get into issues with backwaves causing problems.



#10 of 36 Al.Anderson

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Posted September 08 2013 - 03:12 AM

Then why are enormous subwoofers not loaded with 20 6" drivers?

 

I don't know what I'm talking about, but that's never stopped me before ...

 

I'll argue that the reason it works with a sub is you are trying to move a lot of air and are not constrained by frequency; so handling multi-speaker synchronization and waveform differences is not worth the headache.  However, in a mid-range/tweeter, movement of air is less important than frequency capability, and getting a large speaker to return quickly is harder because of the surface area, and working around that requires stiffer (and heavier) cones which require more power, and may even affect harmonics. 



#11 of 36 Robert_J

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Posted September 08 2013 - 06:41 AM

I chose 6" on purpose. There are numerous IB subs out there with 8" and 10".

 

And I bet Robert could build a better sub, for less money, with two 15" drivers than the Sub 2.

 

I forget who it is, but there is a ridiculously expensive 18" woofer out there...and counting the cone/surround material only(cause the magnet ruins the comparison) it is lighter than pretty much every 15" out there the same price(to make the comparison fair...a cheap 15" isn't going to be light anyway).

 

Light is what makes a driver accurate. Not the fact it is smaller than the one next to it. Mere physics here, but in no way would I expect a 3-way crossover loudspeaker with "an equal multi-woofer area" come close to the bass note of the loudspeaker with the one larger same area woofer.

 

I would expect cone material weighs less than surround material. So...wouldn't one 15" woofer have less surround material than multiple 6"?

 

IB subs should use the best displacement to $ ratio drivers and 12" is usually the smallest.  A few people are looking forward to Stereo Integrity's new 24".  Here's the only successul 12" IB sub I have ever seen discussed - http://home.comcast....3-12Shiva1.html

 

I could.  It's cute that they mention their six 10's can move more air than two 15's.  That makes a LOT of assumptions.  Based on the diagram, their drivers are not that spectacular.  I'd put a Sundown Z10.v4 up against it - https://fbcdn-sphoto...532706440_n.jpg

 

Low inductance is what makes a driver accurate. 

 

When determining mms (moving mass specfication) the cone, surround and coil all facor in.  Aluminum former coils with aluminum wire are lighter than Kapton.  Copper coils are much heavier.  Titanium voice coil formers are the best but very rare due to price.  Then there is surround compliance to factor in.  Foam, rubber, Neoprene, cloth all have different characteristics.  Same with the spiders and the number of them that are used.  Dan Wiggins of ADI has a patent on the Arachnid spider.  Instead of cloth, he uses a thin sheet of metal (usually copper) and laser cuts a design in it so it becomes a speaker suspension plus it also conducts amp power from the speaker terminals to the voice coil.  I've only seen it used in his Parthenon sub motor -
 



#12 of 36 Robert_J

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Posted September 08 2013 - 06:54 AM

I would put the Paradigm with it's six 10inch drivers up against any 18inch subwoofer and i bet it would sound better, i remember reading articles on the reason why smaller subwoofers stacked together sound better than one large subwoofer on it's own, i think they produce tighter bass with less distortion and the more of them the more low bass extension you get, they go very low too, take a look at the subwoofer below, i can't afford it.

 

http://www.rotarywoofer.com/

Bass is about moving air.  With a 10" driver, you can move a good bit but not as much as a 12" or larger (all other parameters the same).  What Paradigm is doing is using a driver with a 2" voice coil and spreading the work over many drivers.  The farther the cone moves, the more distortion is introduced into the sound.  This is because the BL (mangetic strength) is not linear over the movement of the cone.  Again, Dan W. corrected this with his XBL^2 patent -

 

When the first XBL drivers hit the market, there were 2 complaints.  First, they weren't that loud.  Most people had been hearing distortion at high volumes and the cleaner sound was just not "as loud" but SPL readings disproved this quickly.  Second, they blew up easier.  With other drivers, people would use the distortion sound as a clue when to stop turning up the volume.  There was no clue.  I have a 10" Blueprint driver that is in need of a recone for that reason.  It was cranking away and suddently seized up with no warning.  Good thing that Scott and his crew at Fi Car Audio still had some old voice coils stuck in the corner of the warehouse. 



#13 of 36 FoxyMulder

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Posted September 08 2013 - 07:25 AM

Bass is about moving air.  With a 10" driver, you can move a good bit but not as much as a 12" or larger (all other parameters the same).  What Paradigm is doing is using a driver with a 2" voice coil and spreading the work over many drivers.  The farther the cone moves, the more distortion is introduced into the sound.  This is because the BL (mangetic strength) is not linear over the movement of the cone.  Again, Dan W. corrected this with his XBL^2 patent -

 

When the first XBL drivers hit the market, there were 2 complaints.  First, they weren't that loud.  Most people had been hearing distortion at high volumes and the cleaner sound was just not "as loud" but SPL readings disproved this quickly.  Second, they blew up easier.  With other drivers, people would use the distortion sound as a clue when to stop turning up the volume.  There was no clue.  I have a 10" Blueprint driver that is in need of a recone for that reason.  It was cranking away and suddently seized up with no warning.  Good thing that Scott and his crew at Fi Car Audio still had some old voice coils stuck in the corner of the warehouse. 

 

Yes bass is about moving air, don't i know it, my SVS has two twelve inch drivers and weighs a ton.

 

http://www.hometheat...bwoofer-review/

 

Another review.

 

http://www.audioholi...-2-introduction

 

I think my subwoofer is still excellent.

 

back-blktx-med.jpg

 

http://web.archive.o...lus2.cfm#driver


Edited by FoxyMulder, September 08 2013 - 08:33 AM.

     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


#14 of 36 Robert_J

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Posted September 09 2013 - 05:40 AM

The SVS with the old TC Sounds Db12 driver.  I had a pair of those drivers and cloned a pair of SVS passive cylinders.  Great little subs.  I have three of the upgraded TC Sounds 12's using the same motor but with a cast frame and a little more excursion.  You can see it in this photo, under the Behringer amp and center channel. 

100_1032.jpg

 

That's a 15" TC-3000 on the right in a test box.  It's wired at 2 ohms and getting 800w RMS from one channel of the amp.  A pair of those work great in my room.



#15 of 36 FoxyMulder

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Posted September 09 2013 - 05:46 AM

The SVS with the old TC Sounds Db12 driver.  I had a pair of those drivers and cloned a pair of SVS passive cylinders.  Great little subs.  I have three of the upgraded TC Sounds 12's using the same motor but with a cast frame and a little more excursion.  You can see it in this photo, under the Behringer amp and center channel. 

100_1032.jpg

 

That's a 15" TC-3000 on the right in a test box.  It's wired at 2 ohms and getting 800w RMS from one channel of the amp.  A pair of those work great in my room.

 

Yeah i think i was lucky enough to get one of the upgraded drivers when i bought my subwoofer, it looks like mine in your picture.


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


#16 of 36 Type A

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Posted September 09 2013 - 06:31 AM

DIY is just plain cool. Sadly I personally dont think I have the skill set for such a project but its hard not to lust over those that do.
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#17 of 36 Robert_J

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Posted September 09 2013 - 12:23 PM

DIY is just plain cool. Sadly I personally dont think I have the skill set for such a project but its hard not to lust over those that do.

I build it in my head dozens of time before ever making the first cut.  I try to look for things that will make my build easier.  Like, would I rather have the front of the speaker inset or covering the entire front?

 

Until a few years ago, I had never worked on a gun before but now I've built numerous ones from parts.  This winter for a big project, I'm using a partially finished hunk of aluminum as my starting point.

 

It's all in the planning.



#18 of 36 schan1269

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Posted September 09 2013 - 12:32 PM

I build it in my head dozens of time before ever making the first cut.  I try to look for things that will make my build easier.  Like, would I rather have the front of the speaker inset or covering the entire front?

 

Until a few years ago, I had never worked on a gun before but now I've built numerous ones from parts.  This winter for a big project, I'm using a partially finished hunk of aluminum as my starting point.

 

It's all in the planning.

 

Planning...exactly.

 

Building things from wood is utterly simple...once you...

 

1. Buy the appropriate tools (not as much as you'd think, my entire lot of powertools is $2500)

2. Measure, measure, measure...and measure again.

3. Take the time, never rush.

 

I spent $350 on a 12" 10-amp compound miter with 85 degree tilt, 18" slide and 65 degree swing. That one saw cut down my time from making 10 picnic tables(which I build in the spring, once nightfall stays above freezing) by almost 3 hours. 10 tables used to take 18 hours(not counting stain/paint). I can now cut all the wood for the tables in 4 hours, which used to take as much as 8. And the "one off" table can be done in 3 hours(since I now have 3 miter saws...set each one for "one cut").



#19 of 36 FoxyMulder

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Posted September 09 2013 - 01:19 PM

Planning...exactly.

 

Building things from wood is utterly simple...once you...

 

1. Buy the appropriate tools (not as much as you'd think, my entire lot of powertools is $2500)

2. Measure, measure, measure...and measure again.

3. Take the time, never rush.

 

I spent $350 on a 12" 10-amp compound miter with 85 degree tilt, 18" slide and 65 degree swing. That one saw cut down my time from making 10 picnic tables(which I build in the spring, once nightfall stays above freezing) by almost 3 hours. 10 tables used to take 18 hours(not counting stain/paint). I can now cut all the wood for the tables in 4 hours, which used to take as much as 8. And the "one off" table can be done in 3 hours(since I now have 3 miter saws...set each one for "one cut").

 

I'd love to be able to do it but i'm totally useless at DIY.


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


#20 of 36 Raptor382

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Posted September 09 2013 - 04:56 PM

thanks for the replies.  as far as the subs ive listed, like i said, im leaning toward the HSU, but im just wondering if passing up one of the outlaw subs would be a mistake.

 

also, im curious.  the sub i have now is a Klipsch RPW10.  35-120Hz, 420W peak 200W RMS.  the HSU sub is 1000W peak 250RMS and the outlaws are 1300/350.  i know the peak power is much different between the two, but as far as the HSU and the klipsch, the RMS power is fairly close.  How much of a difference will there be between the klipsch i have and the ones i listed?






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