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Line doubling and who does it best.


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9 replies to this topic

#1 of 10 OFFLINE   Chris PC

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Posted December 16 2001 - 12:00 PM

List in order the 16:9 HDTV sets that do the best line doubling. I have seen some really bad line doubling which make me not want to buy an HDTV. Which HDTV's do the best line doubling in your opinion and which HDTV's do it the worst? list all the ones you've seen in order of best to worst.
Going from projector to flatscreen for a while.... :P

#2 of 10 OFFLINE   Eric Finn

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Posted December 16 2001 - 12:51 PM

Chris,

Here's my list for included line-doublers.

1. Pioneer Elite x20
2a. Toshiba HX81
2b. Pioneer non-Elite SDxx3HD5
4. Sony XBR
.
.
.
8. Mitsubishi :-)

Somewhere in between 4 and 8 is Hitachi, Phillips, etc.

In any case Pioneer Elite is universally considered to have the best included line doubler and stretch modes. Toshiba HX series and Pioneer non-Elite are tied for second in my book. After that if you're viewing standard NTSC cable its downhill fast. I almost purchased a new Pioneer Elite 620 for a great price from my local dealer. Then I checked my basement steps to see if it would fit. I can't even get a smaller set down the steps. Dohhhh!

Of course this is all my opinion so please take it that way.

Later,

Eric

#3 of 10 OFFLINE   ScottJH

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Posted December 16 2001 - 12:57 PM

Eric, where would you rate the non cinema series Toshiba's(H81)

#4 of 10 OFFLINE   Jeff Leeds

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Posted December 16 2001 - 01:19 PM

I've not been as impressed as you are with the Tosh line doublers. I'll take the Hitachi one over the Tosh any day of the week.
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#5 of 10 OFFLINE   Steve B

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Posted December 16 2001 - 01:20 PM

HTPC does the best job.

#6 of 10 OFFLINE   Todd Hochard

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Posted December 16 2001 - 01:50 PM

To me, Pioneer's line doubler is simply the best (the Elite x20 series, followed by the x10 and xx3HD5 series- which use the same doubler, BTW). In fact, this was the deciding factor in my purchase of the Elite 510.

Sony takes second place for me.

HTPC is best (in the realm of the affordable), but it becomes a bit dicey for all sources. Not everyone wants to be well-versed in the inner workings of dScaler.Posted Image

Todd
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#7 of 10 OFFLINE   Jeff Leeds

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Posted December 17 2001 - 10:31 AM

There is no doubt that Pioneer Elite is the best in the business, but is it worth 2x the price of Hitachi or Toshiba, I guess it all depends on your checkbook. For me the wife compromised on an Hitchi that will be 3 years old in April and we love it.
Jeff Leeds
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#8 of 10 OFFLINE   Chris PC

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Posted December 18 2001 - 07:21 AM

I have seen some really aweful line doubling on Sony, Toshiba and Panasonic, but I can't remember if it was a bad satelitte TV signal or really bad cable at the Future Shop.

I understand that some TV's take the progressive 480p and up convert it to 540p. That sounds bad. What sets pass native progressive 480p DVD signals straight through to be displayed without any converting up or down?

Someone said this on another post about HDTV's:

Sean,
Toshiba and Hitachi both do the 480p to 540p conversion. Sony and Mitsubishi still pass 480p natively. I don't know what Pioneer's new sets do.

So what other sets pass dvd 480p natively? Pioneer? Who else? And if they pass 480p natively, could I then use a good line doubler on my VCR and Laserdisc player?
Going from projector to flatscreen for a while.... :P

#9 of 10 OFFLINE   NickSo

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Posted December 18 2001 - 10:33 AM

Quote:
Eric, where would you rate the non cinema series Toshiba's(H81)

Quote:
I've not been as impressed as you are with the Tosh line doublers. I'll take the Hitachi one over the Tosh any day of the week.

Most (if not all) of the new toshiba HD-ready RPTV's use ISDCPro line-doubling, which uses interpolation to create the progressive image. Interpolation is basically a digital processor that 'predicts' pixels or lines of video that are missing from the video that exists. This reduces artifacts and noise as well.

Here's a link on what interpolation is:

http://www.dtp-aus.com/interpol.htm


#10 of 10 OFFLINE   Chris PC

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Posted December 18 2001 - 12:55 PM

So the TV has to interpolate the lines? It's too bad there's no way to input both sets of lines, or frames and then put them together and draw them progressively? If it did that, the sound would be out of sync?

When comparing NTSC vs DVD 480p, the DVD format obviously has higher resolution, but if you interpolate lines, information is lost and the wrong "guesswork" information is put in its place. I know it looks smooth, but i don't like the loss of the "real detail".

When I watch TV's where there is interpolation going on, it is horrible to see information lost. I notice that an interlaced TV looks great compared to bad interpolating. At least with the interlaced TV, there is no incorrect information.

So I guess I'll have to keep checking out the RP HDTV's and look at their line-doubling.

Can you use a Line-doubler with VHS and L sources and input a progressive signal? Do line-doublers all interpolate just like the TV's internal line doublers? Or do some linedoublers actually just "double" the lines outputted?
Going from projector to flatscreen for a while.... :P




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