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Surround Back Speakers


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#1 of 11 Walt H

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Posted May 24 2007 - 05:51 PM

When you don't have the space behind the sofa for surround back speakers, has anyone tried placing the surround backs to the front as you would do with "presence" speakers?

I had a Yamaha RX-V1400 which gave the option to use surround back OR presence speakers (but NOT both). The unit I currently have does not have the otpion for presence speakers only surround back. I've always felt that surround back and presence function was practically the same which is why the RX-V1400 did not allow you to run both at the same time.

#2 of 11 BrentSP

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Posted May 25 2007 - 03:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt H
When you don't have the space behind the sofa for surround back speakers, has anyone tried placing the surround backs to the front as you would do with "presence" speakers?

I had a Yamaha RX-V1400 which gave the option to use surround back OR presence speakers (but NOT both). The unit I currently have does not have the otpion for presence speakers only surround back. I've always felt that surround back and presence function was practically the same which is why the RX-V1400 did not allow you to run both at the same time.

When in Matrix mode (EX or DTS matrix) the back channels come from the L and R surround channels so if you mounted them up front you would have surrounds coming from the front. I know I wouldn't want that.

I believe Yamie's presence channels are taking the signal from the L and R mains.

#3 of 11 FeisalK

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Posted May 25 2007 - 03:09 AM

Yamaha doesn't allow using both at the same time because there is a limited number of amplifiers (7)

I agree with Brent - you would not want surround back audio coming from the front.

Perhaps you could hang the surround back speakers higher (closer to ceiling) and fire them down towards the sitting area
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#4 of 11 BrentSP

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Posted May 25 2007 - 03:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeisalK

Perhaps you could hang the surround back speakers higher (closer to ceiling) and fire them down towards the sitting area

That is what I did. I actually have both sets, my L and R surrounds and my two back surrounds installed in my 10ft ceiling (paradigm ref) and I love it. They are not pointing directly at the listening so they are semi diffused.

#5 of 11 Walt H

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Posted May 25 2007 - 04:19 AM

I tried the hook-up (with S Backs up front) with a few feet of wire I had left. Listening to FM Radio in 7 ch stereo with this setup appears to add more fullness to the front speakrs overall. However, it seems to throw things of track when listening in DPLIIx and Neo modes.

I think I was psychologically hooked on seeing the DPL IIx indicator light up rather than just the DPL II indicator. Before I run out and buy more wire and other equipment to HANG the speakrs in the rear where they belong, would it be worth the hassle since there isn't much REAL 7.1 information available? Would 5.1 be sufficient in this case? I would only use the 7.1 channels for music and DPL IIx listening.

#6 of 11 LanceJ

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Posted May 25 2007 - 04:53 AM

Keep in mind back surround channels are usually only needed with rooms that only allow the surrounds in a 5.1 system to be placed very far apart, which can result in a sonic "hole" behind your head.

Plus, placing back surrounds in a non-optimum location could easily make the system's overall sound worse.

#7 of 11 Jack Gilvey

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Posted May 25 2007 - 05:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LanceJ
Keep in mind back surround channels are usually only needed with rooms that only allow the surrounds in a 5.1 system to be placed very far apart, which can result in a sonic "hole" behind your head.

Plus, placing back surrounds in a non-optimum location could easily make the system's overall sound worse.

I've always felt that adding the back surrounds were for that purpose,filing a hole, rather than adding anything new (at least when matrixed from 5.1).

I have a couch very close to the back wall also. My surrounds are installed pretty close to Dolby textbook, though, 6' up, slightly behind, symmetrically. Not a wide room, so they're only a few feet further apart than the mains. This puts them pretty close to the back wall, of course, but first-reflections are treated all around.
Anyway, pink noise pans from the new HD DVD of DVE seem perfectly continuous, even across the surrounds. No real hole or jumping present, at least from the center of my couch (my spot Posted Image ). Given this, would there be any benefit to 7.1 at least with 5.1 tracks matrixed to 7.1? Given that I'm getting no "hole", could 7.1 help even if I could install the surrounds properly?
How about with discrete surround info on future tracks?
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#8 of 11 Paul_Dunlop

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Posted May 25 2007 - 06:39 AM

Since my couch is against the back wall and the room is only 8' wide, I went with a single rear center for a 6.1 system

It works well for me

I couldn't use side surrounds, since the room is open for part of one side

I have them slightly angled down
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#9 of 11 LanceJ

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Posted May 26 2007 - 02:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey
Given this, would there be any benefit to 7.1 at least with 5.1 tracks matrixed to 7.1? Given that I'm getting no "hole", could 7.1 help even if I could install the surrounds properly?
How about with discrete surround info on future tracks?
For me anyway, if there's no audible sonic gap I would put that money into more movie software. Posted Image I haven't checked for months now, but last time I did, I counted only 3 hi-def movies with 7.1 soundtracks. I think unless commercial movie theaters start asking for 7.1 mixes (after they've installed new decoders and [possibly] rewired their rear speaker arrays) movie companies will be slow to introduce home versions of that format. Because I honestly don't think most directors are going to place THAT much emphasis on sound effects taking place behind the audience's head.

For reference sake, until I had to move my "bulky and messy" Posted Image component system elsewhere due to objections from the female of the house,* this used to be how I had my speaker system set up: Guidelines And Recommendations, then click on "Recommendations for Surround Sound Production", then check out the diagram on page #2-5. While not technically for movie watching, it sure sounded good to me! Though I fully realize not everyone has the luxury of lots of space behind their couch like I did.

* in its place is a 2.0 HT system based on a pair of beautiful vintage Pioneer CS-99As.

#10 of 11 Jack Gilvey

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Posted May 27 2007 - 12:33 AM

Cool read...thanks. Yeah, if I gave myself that much room behind my couch I'd hit the screen putting my feet up. Posted Image Pretty small HT/studio here. If I've got 360 degrees covered well, I can't see more speakers doing much (save for height, perhaps, but I don't see such a channel being included for a long time).
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#11 of 11 Jack Gilvey

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Posted May 29 2007 - 04:52 AM

Played around a bit with back surrounds yesterday but rear pans were still smoother left at 5.1...
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