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Things looking ominous for BOTH formats?


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#1 of 98 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted June 08 2006 - 11:14 AM

Saw this posted on AVS:

Quote:
Spoke to someone in the industry earlier today and was bemoaning the poor release for HD-DVD and the never-ending delays for BD-DVD. He told me the following:

1) The delay is being caused by the studios. While several have committed support, they have not "officially" committed titles (even though they may have announced them).

2) Many studios are now very worried about the viability of BD-DVD. This is due in large part to significant changes in what they were told about the PS3 (the BD-DVD "Trojan Horse"), the bath many took on PSP video titles, and their experience with SACD vs. DVD-A.

3) The studios are currently using this position to re-negotiate royalties and duplication costs with Sony as they now feel that they are in the stronger position.

While Sony could of course release what it has, it does not feel that this is enough to "blunt" HD-DVD and in fact could create a backlash effect with the studios. Many of them have been swayed by Microsoft's arguements and are very dissapointed over the two-format "war" as they feel that they could be significant loosers in the long run.

Sony has really bungled this badly. Let's hope that this can right itself, as it is quickly appearing as if HD-DVD and BD-DVD are about to go the way of SACD and DVD-A.

The irony is that I see thinly- veiled celebrating every time there’s any bad news for the format the poster doesn’t support. Why is there this “all or nothing” mentality? People should want GOOD news about BOTH formats. I’m REALLY annoyed that all the people involved can’t properly deliver HD disc content when there are no technical barriers to it!. Sigh (and please spare me any “see what trouble the ‘other’ side has caused” posts).

#2 of 98 OFFLINE   JohnS

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Posted June 08 2006 - 12:13 PM

Quote:
the bath many took on PSP video titles, and their experience with SACD vs. DVD-A.

now wait a minute. ISn't it the own studios fault for pricing the UMD's so freakin high? If they would have started it out and kept it at $9.99-12.99 a title they could have had something

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#3 of 98 OFFLINE   Sean Bryan

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Posted June 08 2006 - 12:39 PM

Yeah, this doesn't sound great in general. Though, if you believe it (and we can't be sure the original poster doesn't have "an agenda"), this is speaking to studios having concerns about BD and not seeing it in as strong a light as they once did (and seeing HD DVD in a little better light).

But mostly, it seems like they are just using these "concerns" to get a better deal.

Still, this is interesting (potentially concerning) enough to warrant some reasonable discussion. I posted this excerpt in one of the threads in the Hi-Def Software forum here as well.

Curious to see if people are going to be concerned about this or just kinda shrug it off. Most reasonable reaction is to not take it too seriously unless we hear more of this kinda stuff from multiple (reliable) people with (reliable) sources.

For all we know, the Samsung player may not wind up being delayed at all. And even if it is, we aren't going to get any official info saying that this is the reason.

Guess the most reasonable thing to do is see how is plays out.

I'll be getting both formats. I'd like each to get a fair shake and the one that delivers the best product to "win" (or at least become the dominant format if they both co-exist). But before any of that can happen, they need to get these things out there, get out movies people want to buy, and then see how things develop.
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#4 of 98 OFFLINE   Lew Crippen

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Posted June 08 2006 - 02:37 PM

Quote:
Spoke to someone in the industry earlier today...
Now this is what I love about the internet.

An anonymous source, who even if in the industry, could be a single, low level technician or editor with no real connections.

However it is credible that various factions would be trying to negotiate better deals. But I think that it is too early for any real panic by executives.
¡Time is not my master!

#5 of 98 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted June 08 2006 - 03:16 PM

What gives it plausibility is that it explains the current situation. The alternative is that Blu-Ray is having a hard time working out all the kinks.

#6 of 98 OFFLINE   Dave H

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Posted June 08 2006 - 03:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew Crippen
But I think that it is too early for any real panic by executives.

You must not work with high level executives.

#7 of 98 OFFLINE   CRyan

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Posted June 08 2006 - 03:38 PM

I personally continue not to understand the DVD-A and SACD comparison. Completely different ball of wax in my mind. People (most) are interested in an easily prortable aduio format that does not require intense retrofitting of audio equipment in their car, home, office, etc. The bennefits of those superior audio formats would not be recognized by most audio systems where most are no more than stereo. The formats themselves basically demanded users to own multiple copies of the same content on multiple platforms to enjoy in any one listening environment - stupid to most. DVD-A for the home, CD for the car and the walkman. The same is true for UMD. What became popular for the PSP was ripping and downresing DVD. Because people do NOT want to buy multiples for various listening or viewing occasions. I am not about to go buy two copies of Hitch (one on DVD and one on DVD) so I can what it on my various devices.

Video on the other hand is predominantly for the home. One format is all that is needed - Whatever that format will be. Most do not care that it will not be protable to their cars or on the go.

That is at least my take on it. One of these formats will succeed and become the standard sooner or later. And it looks like timeliness of content will be the deciding factor.

Hey! I finally posted something in the HD section!

#8 of 98 OFFLINE   Lew Crippen

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Posted June 08 2006 - 04:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave H
You must not work with high level executives.
I'm retired--but you would have been wrong.
¡Time is not my master!

#9 of 98 OFFLINE   Austan

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Posted June 09 2006 - 03:15 AM

The way I see it. Toshiba is doing what Sony is known for, which is "going alone". By having no other partners, they can designed and release their product much quicker. The downside is that they are limited in R&D, testing and product selection. The HD-DVD camp is taking advantage of "first release" but with limited backing there will be limited choices in products. The Blu-Ray camp has to coordinate their designed and release. They can share R&D data, testing data and they will have more products released. The price they pay is time. With low sales volume of Toshiba HD DVD units, there is no added pressure on the Blu-Ray camp to release their products. Hopefully they will take this time and release Grade A products instead of letting the consumer "Beta-Test" for them.

As we have it today:
HD-DVD camp saying that Blu-Ray is delayed, hard to work with, not ready. They have that right because they are first out the gate.
Blu-Ray camp saying that HD-DVD quality is poor and no support. They can say that because thats what the data suggests.

I dont know, but once "time" has passed, the Blu-Ray camp can over come their critics by releasing high quality products. Will time get more HD-DVD supporters? Will time clear up the "quality issues" with the first generation Toshiba HD-DVD players?

SACD & DVD-A:
Times have changed, the mass consumer has moved onto a mobile audio format (MP3). Both of these products came too late. Fast Food & quick meals is what fuels this nation. Gone are the days of stilling for hours in a lounge chair listening to music.

UMD:
Sony sold 8.2 million UMD movies. with no UMD blanks, no UMD writer and high prices it was easier for people to downsize DVDs onto a Memory Stick. If the UMD movies were cheaper, there might have been a different outcome.

#10 of 98 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted June 09 2006 - 03:29 AM

Quote:
Blu-Ray camp saying that HD-DVD quality is poor and no support. They can say that because thats what the data suggests.....Will time clear up the "quality issues" with the first generation Toshiba HD-DVD players?
What "quality issues" are there with the Toshiba players that have the firmware update (an update that belies the "no support" comment)? I see complaints about player shortages, concerns about sales and a desire for more titles, but no complaints about video or audio quality.

#11 of 98 OFFLINE   Edwin-S

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Posted June 09 2006 - 03:41 AM

I don't think he was referring to customer support when he said "no support". I believe he was referring to a lack of support by the majority of studios and other CE manufacturing companies. Some Blu-ray supporters have been noting the lack of that type of support in their posts about HD DVD.
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#12 of 98 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted June 09 2006 - 03:57 AM

Quote:
I don't think he was referring to customer support when he said "no support". I believe he was referring to a lack of support by the majority of studios and other CE manufacturing companies.
His wording says otherwise (or is simply poor), because studio support and Toshiba being the only current manufacturer are KNOWN issues, not something "suggested" by "data".

#13 of 98 OFFLINE   Austan

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Posted June 09 2006 - 03:58 AM

There are no complaints about video quality or audio quality... Read the reviews again... You've only re-emphasized my points by saying "firmware update". At $500-$800 consumers want a more refined product.

"no support" as in Toshiba is going at it alone. No other manufacture is releasing a stand alone HD-DVD player. There is no other option for consumers if they want to go with HD-DVD. It's Toshiba or bust...

There's a big difference between "desire for more titles"... You can devote time or money.. takes me no time to say I want more HD-DVD titles released, but it cost money to buy a HD-DVD player and all available titles.

So far, the only hard evidence to date is 7500 HD-A1 units sold. Sorry but only those 7500 owners have the right to say "I want more HD-DVD titles". The rest of us are just blowing hot air. There was 8.2 million UMD movies sold and the format was still killed... Just to show you that studios dont want to waste time & money making multiply copies of the same movie in multiple formats. It's do or die for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE...

#14 of 98 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted June 09 2006 - 04:01 AM

Quote:
There are no complaints about video quality or audio quality
So with the firmware update, what "quality issues" are there?

#15 of 98 OFFLINE   Austan

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Posted June 09 2006 - 04:07 AM

Quality issues as in "a more refined product"... Please read the reviews. at $500-$800 customers expect more... It not a knock on the format, it's a knock on the player.

#16 of 98 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted June 09 2006 - 04:23 AM

Quote:
Please read the reviews
I've read the reviews, thank you, and see no complaints about the quality of the player. The only thing I read that could be consider "unrefined" is the slow load time, but from what I've read, BD is no different in this regard. I've read nothing that says the quality is "poor" because of this (as your original post claimed).

#17 of 98 OFFLINE   Austan

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Posted June 09 2006 - 04:41 AM

people can take "poor quality" to mean anything. The XBOX in japan was considered "poor quality" because the game disc scratched easily... Poor quality can also mean a rushed product that was not refined and need a firmware upgrade out the door. How many HD-DVD movies are available? and yet the player couldnt even play them all with out a hitch... to me that points to poor testing and therefore poor quality...

There is no BD player so how can it suffer form the same issue?

Let's not debate words and get back with the subject at hand..
"Why is there this “all or nothing” mentality? "... I think you can read my reasoning above... but to summarize before you I get mis-interpertated.

THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE FORMAT BECAUSE STUDIOS DO NOT WANT TO RELEASE THE SAME MOVIE ON MULTIPLE FORMATS.

SD DVD will be here for a while so that's already 1 format. Now they will have to decided wither to support HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

#18 of 98 OFFLINE   RobertR

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Posted June 09 2006 - 05:29 AM

Quote:
yet the player couldnt even play them all with out a hitch
The updated firmware does play them without a hitch, so the “data” is that the quality isn’t “poor”. Quite the contrary. If you think it's a given that BD players will have ZERO hitches from day one (and will therefore not be "poor quality" according to you), you're very much mistaken.

Quote:
There is no BD player so how can it suffer form the same issue?
I was referring to reports about load times for the Sony player being demoed. I doubt anyone will consider any HD player to be “poor quality” because of slow startup times.

#19 of 98 OFFLINE   Cees Alons

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Posted June 09 2006 - 06:46 AM

Quote:
THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE FORMAT BECAUSE STUDIOS DO NOT WANT TO RELEASE THE SAME MOVIE ON MULTIPLE FORMATS.
I wonder if that's true. For years, computer software could be obtained on different media. For the studios, the medium isn't that important, as long as it works (and sells).
Don't forget we will even see parallel releases on a totally different format (SD) for a very long time.

It's funny Austan how you twist the (allegedly or not) moderate sales of HD DVD players into a disadvantage for the format. If it is to be considered too low indeed, it is more of a disadvantage to the HR concept as a whole, IMO. The public might not be really interested.
But in terms of the "war" it isn't an advantage to BD, because there hasn't even a single BD player been sold (yes, I know why: because it's not there, but that's besides the point).

So I think the question in the title of this thread might by answered with a (hesitant) 'yes'.


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#20 of 98 OFFLINE   Austan

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Posted June 09 2006 - 07:38 AM

Is it safe to say that both camps are gambling with their strategies?
HD-DVD took the "first out the gate" approach.
Blu-Ray is gambling on time.

First out of gate advantage is that it tries to capture market share before the competition has time to start. First out the gate is also a double edge sword. You get all the complements as well as all the complaints. Video/Audio wise the complements have been great. Boot up times and lockups have been the complaints.

Blu-Ray isnt available but has HD-DVD infiltrated the market such as Blu-Ray can no longer compete? Try convincing people that "boot up" times are normal when you have the only player available. If there were other products on the market to compare then it would be easier. Being first out, makes you the target for every criticism. I dont think Toshiba has sold enough players, but Toshiba now has to deal with the complaints. So the advantage of market dominance has disappeared and has now turned into a dis-advantage because Toshiba has to deal with the complaints.


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