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1080P on the horizon...Gary Reber talks HD formats...


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#1 of 48 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted April 03 2003 - 03:57 AM

Firstly, this is a thread that will not bash D-VHS.
If you can't handle a discussion that doesn't bash D-VHS then leave.

Moderators, please enforce.


Now,

Lots of good discussion about HD in general, D-VHS and future possible HD-DVD formats.

What interested me particularly is this comment (emphasis mine):

Quote:
The JVC HM-DH30000U features, in addition to IEEE 1394, an analog HDTV video output compatible with the YPbPr input included on most high-definition displays and will output YPbPr analog component video signals in the 1080i (interlaced), 720p (progressive), 480p, or 480i formats. The format and the JVC VCR are also capable of outputting 1080p. The platform’s supporting studios and JVC are working on the 1080p-mastering interface. It is the intent of the studios and JVC to eventually release D-Theater-encrypted movies in 1080p.

I knew that D-VHS could do 1080P but I hadn't heard before this that the studios are on-board with trying to deliver it.

Full HD discussion:

http://www.widescree....rus040303.html

This is big news folks. Why? Because even if D-VHS isn't the HD format that we live with for the rest of our lives (no, this is not an opening to trash D-VHS), the picture and sound quality it presents will become the reference that help guide the development of the optical HD-disc based (and other future) formats that we get.

If the studios can learn to master in full 1080P for D-VHS, and high-end consumers appreciate that full resolution on their 1080P digital displays, it will help make sure the HD-DVD heads down the same road to deliver 1080P as well.

BTW, yes there *will* be a whole crop of full 1920 x 1080 16x9 HD digital projectors over the next few years that will take full advantage of 1080P source material. Sony's SXRD projectors and RP TVs set for release this year will be the world's first consumer displays. Within 2-3 years it's likely that most major projector and TV manufacturers will have full 1080P HD consumer displays.
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#2 of 48 OFFLINE   Jeff Bamberger

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Posted April 03 2003 - 04:05 AM

This gets me thinking. We have all this rangling going on now for HD-DVD. What format will it be, whatr laser, 1080i or 720p.

It will just kill me if they come out with one of those, and then we have another rangling debacle regarding 1080p.

The only thing bad about 1080p is thatit probably means we will not get Star Wars DVDs until 2010.

Say what you will about D-VHS, but we use two decks in the store I work at on the weekends to demo and the customers are blown away by the quality! Here's to hoping we really do get 1080p soon!!!!

#3 of 48 OFFLINE   Jeff Kleist

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Posted April 03 2003 - 04:27 AM

Quote:
The only thing bad about 1080p is thatit probably means we will not get Star Wars DVDs until 2010.


They're coming in 2006. I believe Mr. Lucas has committed to that.

Personally, I'm almost glad I've been too poor to get an HD set so I'll be able to get one with 1080p, and hopefully DVHS decks will be down in the $300 range by then, so I'll have something snazzy to play on it Posted Image

#4 of 48 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted April 03 2003 - 04:39 AM

Jeff,

That's my attitude too.

I've been saving and waiting (working on the HT room and not 100% happy with the $$/PQ of current digital projectors) to get a front projector and now with Sony's SXRD on the horizon...I think that the wait may have been worth it!

rumor is that Sony may shock the HT market by pricing their 1920 x 1080 SXRD models under $10K...and maybe closer to $6K or $8K. With black-level and contrast as good/better than the best HD2 DLP units (already good enough to satisfy most black-happy folks) we've got some exciting times ahead!

dave Posted Image
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#5 of 48 OFFLINE   Jeff Kleist

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Posted April 03 2003 - 04:51 AM

Unfortunately I think $2500 is going to be my limit Posted Image

#6 of 48 OFFLINE   Jack Briggs

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Posted April 03 2003 - 05:12 AM

I read that piece by Mr. Reber. And this is an exciting era. Just think: The true ideal of home theater—the accurate replication of the commercial-cinema experience in the home—is just around the corner if all goes well. The picture quality at 1080p, with well-authored, film-based source material, would be almost indistinguishable from a release print.

How cool is that?

#7 of 48 OFFLINE   Jeff Kleist

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Posted April 03 2003 - 05:51 AM

Drool Jack, drool Posted Image

#8 of 48 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted April 03 2003 - 06:08 AM

My sentiments exactly Posted Image
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#9 of 48 OFFLINE   Alex Spindler

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Posted April 03 2003 - 06:20 AM

Fascinating read. Alot of great discussion well and above 1080p.

In terms of assessing the playback potential of 1080p, would you assume that it would require somewhere like twice the bit rate of 1080i or would it be closer to just a marginal increase as it would just be comparing frames more often with smaller differences per frame?

Also, I was encouraged by his positioning of Warner's HD solution being complementary to blue-laser HD rather than being a competing standard. It makes the format war much easier to think of.

#10 of 48 OFFLINE   Scott L

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Posted April 03 2003 - 06:29 AM

Yes no matter what you think about D-VHS it sets the benchmark for the disc formats to follow, pretty funny ain't it? Posted Image

Curious about this- I know that Toshiba/NEC's format for HD-DVD is supported by the DVD Forum but it seems Blu-Ray has more backing (along with slightly better specs). With all this support will Sony's Blu-ray still have to compete with the DVD Forum or will they even try?

#11 of 48 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted April 03 2003 - 06:31 AM

Alex,

I agree with feeling *a lot* better about Warner's red-laser HD-DVD after reading this article. Nice to know that they plan to "team" it with Toshiba's/NEC's blue-laser format. That would work for me...it would just mean that HD-DVD players would be spec'ed to play both discs.

Regarding space/bandwidth for 1080P...

If we're talking about film-based material (which we are for movies)...then 1080P takes no more...no less bandwidth than 1080 I. Why? Because 1080P could be tranmitted in 24 fps form and your projector would apply 3-2 pulldown to display at 60 Hz (or just triple the refresh at 72Hz...even better).

Whether it's 24 frames or 48 fields it's the same amount of info in the same amount of time.

In fact, the usual way of broadcasting/transmitting 1080I of film material takes *more* room because 3-2 is applied to bring you up to 60Hz.

Leaving the signal in pure 24 fps form and letting the display take care of upping the refresh to whatever is appropriate given that machines capabilities makes the most sense...and makes the most efficient use of bandwith as well.

BTW, most film-based material is compressed at the progressive-level to maximize compression efficiency and then converted to interlaced with 3-2 only for final stages before broadcasting. In the case of DVD, 3-2 is not applied to the signal on the disc at all...it's left up to the DVD player during MPEG2 decompression to apply 3-2 to produce the 60 Hz playback. In the case of 1080P, chances are it would be left in 24 fps form even after decompression or conversion to analog to minimize bandwidth requirements for transmission.
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#12 of 48 OFFLINE   DeeF

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Posted April 03 2003 - 08:21 AM

I'm sure I read somewhere that an important studio head said that he would never agree to allow his products to be sold in 1080p, that it was tantamount to giving away the store.

I can imagine 1080p over the air, unrecordable.

Just playing devil's advocate -- I'd love to have my DVDs display 1080p (I'm loving them in 480p, frankly).

#13 of 48 OFFLINE   Alex Spindler

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Posted April 03 2003 - 08:31 AM

Thanks David. I had been stuck thinking of it being encoded as 60hz instead of films' 24 fps. In that case, I can see how it is pretty immaterial.

#14 of 48 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted April 03 2003 - 08:39 AM

Quote:
I can imagine 1080p over the air, unrecordable.

Shouldn't be. Even with 3-2 added 1080P over the air would be broadcast 30 Hz...which takes up the same space/bandwidth as 1080I 60 Hz.

I think that most D-VHS decks would be able to lock on and record the native signal without a problem. Anybody know for sure?

Quote:
Thanks David. I had been stuck thinking of it being encoded as 60hz instead of films' 24 fps. In that case, I can see how it is pretty immaterial.

Good choice of words! ("immaterial"). You've "got it" regarding 1080P for 24 fps film-based material. You can't imagine how time and time again I try to explain to some pretty smart people that 1080P for film-based material isn't a problem as they keep demanding "but it takes twice the bandwidth!". Funny how our brains sometimes have a hard time letting go that digital video isn't forced to fit into a 60Hz carrier like old-fashioned NTSC was...

60 Hz 1080P > 60 Hz 1080I (who would deny?)
30 Hz 1080P = 60 Hz 1080I (film based material fits here)
24 fps 1080P < 60 Hz 1080I (and fits even better here!)

No problem! Posted Image

-dave
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#15 of 48 OFFLINE   Ed St. Clair

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Posted April 03 2003 - 09:37 AM

I predicted 1080p would be "THE" standard back in '98, when the HD spec's were first released.
That's why I have never heavily invested in HD hardware.
Now that the Toshiba LCoS can due 1080p, the flood gates will open, and I'll finally be able to get true HD (sat, cable, OTA, & on disc) in, say, 2008!
I've only been waiting since HD was first proposed, what was that, 1988?
Japan has had HD now, like, more then a decade!
Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

#16 of 48 OFFLINE   DeanWalsh

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Posted April 03 2003 - 10:06 AM

Quote:
I can imagine 1080p over the air, unrecordable.


Quote:
Shouldn't be. Even with 3-2 added 1080P over the air would be broadcast 30 Hz...which takes up the same space/bandwidth as 1080I 60 Hz.


David I think you missed Dee's point. He was saying that studios might not want to deliver perfect copies of their films for sale at 1080p because there would be no way to offer a superior version down the road and therefore it becomes a definitive release, which is fantastic from a consumer point of view but you could see how this would be a problem to the studios (I recall this being discussed when dvd was in it's infancy, but it's far more relevant to 1080P if it's a perfect reproduction of the HD master).
That's why Dee was saying the only way he could see 1080P being a reality and the studios agreeing to support it would be with a strictly protected non-recordable broadcast of the material.

#17 of 48 OFFLINE   Dennis Pagoulatos

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Posted April 03 2003 - 04:02 PM

Whatever the true HD standard was to be, I was one who never bought into anything even being called "High Definition" unless it was Progressive Scan. 1080P is a good start, and at 72HZ would truly rock for ALL source material (both 24fps film based material, and all new HD video recorded in that format). Things are certainly looking up! Posted Image

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#18 of 48 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted April 04 2003 - 01:30 AM

Got it Dean.

That's exactly why I found it so interesting that Gary says that according to JVC there are studios that *are* interested in doing full 1080P mastering.

Also remember folks, that even without "official" 1080P mastering, as long as a studio hasn't applied too much filtering to minimize alaising, that with 3-2 pulldown a 1080I film-source signal can be converted to a "real" 1080P signal.

Whether they release films in "official" 1080P 24fps or 48Hz 1080I encoded, I know that Sony Columbia Tristar is *very* eager to release movies in 1080-res on pre-recorded disc. It's one of the reasons they've been mastering in HD for so long and downconverting for DVD. Even back in 1998 they were toying with releasing HD movies spread accross 2 discs of red-laser DVD. I remember going to a Sony trade show that year where the reps were very excited about offering HD movies this way "on DVD in the next few years". Once blue-laser technology started to look more feasable, Sony held off on releaseing any such format until blue-laser could be developed properly and now they've released Blue-Ray discs in Japan (which right now are record-only but could easily be sold with pre-recorded HD film content).

I'm sure there are some studios that, as you say, would feel very reluctant to release 1080 films to the masses. But D-VHS is showing us that at least some studios don't seem to have a problem with it. I can assure you that Sony will release its entire catalog of films on a 1080-res HD disc. It's going to happen and it's going to happen sooner than many people think.

I'm sure that just like with DVD we'll have some "hold out" studios like Disney who don't utilize the format for fears of piracy and, as you say, the fear that they could not resell-the product. I think what will eventually happen is that Studios will learn to resell HD software over and over again by the inclusion of bonus material that was previously unavailable as well as improved transfers. Heck...how many times have some of us bought the same title over and over again on the SD-DVD format already for the same reason?!?

Anyone who repurchased Much Ado About Nothing or West Side Story is demonstrating to the studios that bonus material is reason enough to justify a new purchase of the same title. Once Disney figures this out, they will eventually get on-baord with HD-DVD as well.
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#19 of 48 OFFLINE   Gregory Pauswinski

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Posted April 04 2003 - 02:19 AM

That is an excellent article. Thanks for bringing it to our attention!

Gregory

#20 of 48 OFFLINE   Todd Hochard

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Posted April 04 2003 - 04:34 AM

I'll take it. I am a bit skeptical about the studios' "commitment," given their "commitment" thus far to pre-recorded 1080i content.

EDIT- Gary's Utopian Case is "Red + Blue." I'm not convinced that Blue is up to task in either data rate or capacity. My utopia is backwards-compatible Blu-Ray.

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