1080P on the horizon...Gary Reber talks HD formats...

Discussion in 'DVD' started by DaViD Boulet, Apr 3, 2003.

  1. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    Firstly, this is a thread that will not bash D-VHS.
    If you can't handle a discussion that doesn't bash D-VHS then leave.

    Moderators, please enforce.


    Now,

    Lots of good discussion about HD in general, D-VHS and future possible HD-DVD formats.

    What interested me particularly is this comment (emphasis mine):

     
  2. Jeff Bamberger

    Jeff Bamberger Second Unit

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    This gets me thinking. We have all this rangling going on now for HD-DVD. What format will it be, whatr laser, 1080i or 720p.

    It will just kill me if they come out with one of those, and then we have another rangling debacle regarding 1080p.

    The only thing bad about 1080p is thatit probably means we will not get Star Wars DVDs until 2010.

    Say what you will about D-VHS, but we use two decks in the store I work at on the weekends to demo and the customers are blown away by the quality! Here's to hoping we really do get 1080p soon!!!!
     
  3. Jeff Kleist

    Jeff Kleist Executive Producer

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  4. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    Jeff,

    That's my attitude too.

    I've been saving and waiting (working on the HT room and not 100% happy with the $$/PQ of current digital projectors) to get a front projector and now with Sony's SXRD on the horizon...I think that the wait may have been worth it!

    rumor is that Sony may shock the HT market by pricing their 1920 x 1080 SXRD models under $10K...and maybe closer to $6K or $8K. With black-level and contrast as good/better than the best HD2 DLP units (already good enough to satisfy most black-happy folks) we've got some exciting times ahead!

    dave [​IMG]
     
  5. Jeff Kleist

    Jeff Kleist Executive Producer

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    Unfortunately I think $2500 is going to be my limit [​IMG]
     
  6. Jack Briggs

    Jack Briggs Executive Producer

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    I read that piece by Mr. Reber. And this is an exciting era. Just think: The true ideal of home theater—the accurate replication of the commercial-cinema experience in the home—is just around the corner if all goes well. The picture quality at 1080p, with well-authored, film-based source material, would be almost indistinguishable from a release print.

    How cool is that?
     
  7. Jeff Kleist

    Jeff Kleist Executive Producer

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    Drool Jack, drool [​IMG]
     
  8. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    My sentiments exactly [​IMG]
     
  9. Alex Spindler

    Alex Spindler Producer

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    Fascinating read. Alot of great discussion well and above 1080p.

    In terms of assessing the playback potential of 1080p, would you assume that it would require somewhere like twice the bit rate of 1080i or would it be closer to just a marginal increase as it would just be comparing frames more often with smaller differences per frame?

    Also, I was encouraged by his positioning of Warner's HD solution being complementary to blue-laser HD rather than being a competing standard. It makes the format war much easier to think of.
     
  10. Scott L

    Scott L Producer

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    Yes no matter what you think about D-VHS it sets the benchmark for the disc formats to follow, pretty funny ain't it? [​IMG]

    Curious about this- I know that Toshiba/NEC's format for HD-DVD is supported by the DVD Forum but it seems Blu-Ray has more backing (along with slightly better specs). With all this support will Sony's Blu-ray still have to compete with the DVD Forum or will they even try?
     
  11. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    Alex,

    I agree with feeling *a lot* better about Warner's red-laser HD-DVD after reading this article. Nice to know that they plan to "team" it with Toshiba's/NEC's blue-laser format. That would work for me...it would just mean that HD-DVD players would be spec'ed to play both discs.

    Regarding space/bandwidth for 1080P...

    If we're talking about film-based material (which we are for movies)...then 1080P takes no more...no less bandwidth than 1080 I. Why? Because 1080P could be tranmitted in 24 fps form and your projector would apply 3-2 pulldown to display at 60 Hz (or just triple the refresh at 72Hz...even better).

    Whether it's 24 frames or 48 fields it's the same amount of info in the same amount of time.

    In fact, the usual way of broadcasting/transmitting 1080I of film material takes *more* room because 3-2 is applied to bring you up to 60Hz.

    Leaving the signal in pure 24 fps form and letting the display take care of upping the refresh to whatever is appropriate given that machines capabilities makes the most sense...and makes the most efficient use of bandwith as well.

    BTW, most film-based material is compressed at the progressive-level to maximize compression efficiency and then converted to interlaced with 3-2 only for final stages before broadcasting. In the case of DVD, 3-2 is not applied to the signal on the disc at all...it's left up to the DVD player during MPEG2 decompression to apply 3-2 to produce the 60 Hz playback. In the case of 1080P, chances are it would be left in 24 fps form even after decompression or conversion to analog to minimize bandwidth requirements for transmission.
     
  12. DeeF

    DeeF Screenwriter

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    I'm sure I read somewhere that an important studio head said that he would never agree to allow his products to be sold in 1080p, that it was tantamount to giving away the store.

    I can imagine 1080p over the air, unrecordable.

    Just playing devil's advocate -- I'd love to have my DVDs display 1080p (I'm loving them in 480p, frankly).
     
  13. Alex Spindler

    Alex Spindler Producer

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    Thanks David. I had been stuck thinking of it being encoded as 60hz instead of films' 24 fps. In that case, I can see how it is pretty immaterial.
     
  14. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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  15. Ed St. Clair

    Ed St. Clair Producer

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    I predicted 1080p would be "THE" standard back in '98, when the HD spec's were first released.
    That's why I have never heavily invested in HD hardware.
    Now that the Toshiba LCoS can due 1080p, the flood gates will open, and I'll finally be able to get true HD (sat, cable, OTA, & on disc) in, say, 2008!
    I've only been waiting since HD was first proposed, what was that, 1988?
    Japan has had HD now, like, more then a decade!
     
  16. DeanWalsh

    DeanWalsh Second Unit

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  17. Dennis Pagoulatos

    Dennis Pagoulatos Supporting Actor

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    Whatever the true HD standard was to be, I was one who never bought into anything even being called "High Definition" unless it was Progressive Scan. 1080P is a good start, and at 72HZ would truly rock for ALL source material (both 24fps film based material, and all new HD video recorded in that format). Things are certainly looking up! [​IMG]

    -Dennis
     
  18. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    Got it Dean.

    That's exactly why I found it so interesting that Gary says that according to JVC there are studios that *are* interested in doing full 1080P mastering.

    Also remember folks, that even without "official" 1080P mastering, as long as a studio hasn't applied too much filtering to minimize alaising, that with 3-2 pulldown a 1080I film-source signal can be converted to a "real" 1080P signal.

    Whether they release films in "official" 1080P 24fps or 48Hz 1080I encoded, I know that Sony Columbia Tristar is *very* eager to release movies in 1080-res on pre-recorded disc. It's one of the reasons they've been mastering in HD for so long and downconverting for DVD. Even back in 1998 they were toying with releasing HD movies spread accross 2 discs of red-laser DVD. I remember going to a Sony trade show that year where the reps were very excited about offering HD movies this way "on DVD in the next few years". Once blue-laser technology started to look more feasable, Sony held off on releaseing any such format until blue-laser could be developed properly and now they've released Blue-Ray discs in Japan (which right now are record-only but could easily be sold with pre-recorded HD film content).

    I'm sure there are some studios that, as you say, would feel very reluctant to release 1080 films to the masses. But D-VHS is showing us that at least some studios don't seem to have a problem with it. I can assure you that Sony will release its entire catalog of films on a 1080-res HD disc. It's going to happen and it's going to happen sooner than many people think.

    I'm sure that just like with DVD we'll have some "hold out" studios like Disney who don't utilize the format for fears of piracy and, as you say, the fear that they could not resell-the product. I think what will eventually happen is that Studios will learn to resell HD software over and over again by the inclusion of bonus material that was previously unavailable as well as improved transfers. Heck...how many times have some of us bought the same title over and over again on the SD-DVD format already for the same reason?!?

    Anyone who repurchased Much Ado About Nothing or West Side Story is demonstrating to the studios that bonus material is reason enough to justify a new purchase of the same title. Once Disney figures this out, they will eventually get on-baord with HD-DVD as well.
     
  19. Gregory Pauswinski

    Gregory Pauswinski Supporting Actor

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    That is an excellent article. Thanks for bringing it to our attention!

    Gregory
     
  20. Todd Hochard

    Todd Hochard Cinematographer

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    I'll take it. I am a bit skeptical about the studios' "commitment," given their "commitment" thus far to pre-recorded 1080i content.

    EDIT- Gary's Utopian Case is "Red + Blue." I'm not convinced that Blue is up to task in either data rate or capacity. My utopia is backwards-compatible Blu-Ray.

    Todd
     

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