Public Domain Titles/Quality on DVD (1 Viewer)

[Damin J Toell]

Couldn't any company use that "copyright" of them working on the transfer or spending their own money? I mean, if Alpha took the print from a no-name VHS label, could that label turn on Alpha since they spent money? If Alpha was going to "steal" a print, they would certainly take a look at two or three versions and release the best one. The three prints they looked at certainly had money spent on them by someone so how could this continue?

The copyrightable of telecines of public domain films is a very interesting, and generally unresolved (I've found), legal question. Copyrights are granted to works featuring some level of originality. No matter how much time, money, and effort one spends on an unoriginal thing, it can never be copyrighted. If one uses some level of originality on a public domain work, however, that derivative work can itself be copyrighted. For example, some mezzotints of public domain paintings have been found to be copyrightable, as the mezzotint process involves choices of a sufficiently original nature on the part of the mezzotint maker. Also, in one instance I've found, a pan & scan telecine of a public domain scope film has been found to be copyrightable, as the P&S process involved original choices in what to put in the 4x3 frame on the part of the telecinist.
So can an OAR transfer of a public domain film ever be copyrighted? Maybe. Consider a few situations in which it seems likely that it might be. In one situation, the color of the film is faded and a restoration team has had to make creative decisions in how best to recreate the original color. In another situation, the film may be in such poor shape that the dirt and film defect removal process requires choices involving originality on the part of the restoration team on how best to recreate the original visuals based upon flawed source elements. Would any of these hold up in court? I have no idea, although I'd sure love to see it.
I suspect that companies with generally small resources (e.g., Anchor Bay) aren't going to waste their time with a possibly losing legal argument. On the other hand, I suspect that large companies with extensive resources (e.g., Universal and their Charade restoration) are going to be able to scare off PD companies from bothering to use their transfers. No matter the legality of the situation, that's probably the heart of the matter.
DJ

 

[Michael Elliott]

Thanks Bill.

That WONG box set might be Alpha's. They released all the MR WONG films on their own (from Roan's transfers) and a couple months back they released a box set of them, which retailed for the same price that Amazon is asking.

Several companies have also used the Criterion transfer of CARNIVAL OF SOULS yet no one has bothered with Elite's NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD. I've seen four versions of this and they were all taken from a VHS and not the Elite disc.

 

[Bill Burns]

That WONG box set might be Alpha's. They released all the MR WONG films on their own (from Roan's transfers) and a couple months back they released a box set of them, which retailed for the same price that Amazon is asking.

Hmmm ... possibly. It's odd, though, that it says "presented in association with the National Film Museum" at the top of the front cover if this is the case -- I don't believe the Roan box makes this claim. The new box also says "digitally remastered," for whatever that's worth.
Odd, too, that only Amazon seems to have it -- searches at DVDPlanet and DVDEmpire turn up zilch. If anyone's seen it (or can find a back cover scan anywhere with further details), my curiosity remains peaked. If these are just Roan transfers swiped from the Roan set, then I'd naturally dismiss it and buy the Roans (Roan expresses a copyright to their "restoration" of these films on the back of their box, and forbids copying in the same blurb, by the way) ... but that claim to a National Film Museum collaboration on the new set remains a draw if it is not a copy of the old (and if it is not in violation of copyright).

 

[Dan Rudolph]

Aren't works derived from public domain sourdes themselves public domain? Wouldn't a DVD transfer of a public-domain movie fall into this category?

 

[Damin J Toell]

Aren't works derived from public domain sourdes themselves public domain? Wouldn't a DVD transfer of a public-domain movie fall into this category?

Not necessarily. Please see my post a few up from yours. If the derivative work has sufficient originality, it can be copyrighted. West Side Story is copyrighted despite being derived from "Romeo & Juliet," to give an extreme example. A new recording of a public domain symphony would also be copyrightable (hence all of the copyrighted CDs of, for example, Beethoven's works).
DJ

 

[Bill Burns]

Dan -- any original work done to the film element, from restoration to tinting to sound remixing, may be copyrightable, as per above, just as the telecine itself (the "art" of timing, etc.) and any transfer may be copyrightable.
If a disc exerts a copyright, I'm prepared to assume that copyright is legitimate. The Roans all exert a copyright, as do the Criterions, etc..
As to the new Wong set, I've just located one on-line page for the disc outside of Amazon (I don't know the company, though, so I won't link it), and they name the DVD company as Falcon Pictures Group (though they, too, offer only a front cover scan). The plot thickens ....
UPDATE: I see Damin reiterated his earlier comments as well, Dan.

 

[Dan Rudolph]

So it's likely copyrightable but hasn't really been given a legal test then?

 

[John Hodson]

Very interesting and useful thread; after purchasing Laureate's Charade and being dismayed by both the transfer and the dull, dull commentary, I've tended to steer clear of their offerings, but I might now give Meet John Doe a go.
I just got my copy yesterday, after wavering due to comments on that other thread. But now I'm glad I went ahead. Yes, there is some ghosting on the 1929 version, but it does not render the film in any way unwatchable. Interestingly, the least affected part of the film appears to be the Technicolor ballroom scene (which is truly wonderful). The commentary (I've listened to just a few minutes) seems fascinating, and there are lots of other extras to make this release a must have, particularly considering that it's very reasonably priced.
---
So many films, so little time...

 

[oscar_merkx]

I echo John's remarks about this thread, learning so many new ideas and thoughts that I will purchase several of the titles mentioned here.
Keep it up

 

[John Sparks]

...National Film Museum, that rang a bell.

Triton Multimedia has put out quite a number of collections of 3 movies each and they all say at the beginning "National Film Museum Incorporated".

I don't know if they are still around, but I wanted to add a film that Triton took from Roan, "White Zombie".

It's the craps when I bought Roan's version for $20 and then see it's the same version as Tritons which I bought for $10 along with "The Ape Man and The Gorilla".

This is really a hit or miss game with these small companies.

Like one other poster said that if MGM can give you 2 movies in 16x9 anamorphic for $10, why are we settling on one lousy film for $5???

...maybe it's because this is the only way we will see these films, none of the majors will ever release them. We can't even get them to release any of the early classics, much less these grade D films.

 

[Barrie Maxwell]

Thanks very much for everyone's feedback so far. The more I read, the more interesting and complex this whole issue becomes. I hadn't even been thinking about silent films when I started the thread, but that's obviously an important part of it. Please keep chiming in with any particular titles you recommend, for or against.

There are, for example, a number of popular and major titles that have been issued by many companies. Some have definitive (or at least very good versions issued by the original studio or one of the major independents). His Girl Friday (from Columbia) or Charade (from Criterion or Universal) or Meet John Doe (from Image or Laureate) are good examples of a case where there's little need to try to choose between the various offerings from multiple public domain specialists. But what about the following titles:

Till the Clouds Roll By

Royal Wedding

Santa Fe Trail

Love Affair (1939)

This Is the Army

Flying Deuces

Penny Serenade

Road to Rio

to name but a few. I'm sure you can think of others. What's the best and worst current release available?

Barrie

 

[Larry Sutliff]

but I wanted to add a film that Triton took from Roan, "White Zombie".

How could I have forgotten that one? Roan's WHITE ZOMBIE restoration is an excellent DVD. The film has a few rough spots, but it's the most complete print available,and most of it looks pretty nice for a PD title from 1932. Indeed, it looks better than some of Universal's Classic Monster titles. It also includes a great commentary by Gary D. Rhodes(who has written an outstanding book on the making of WHITE ZOMBIE) and a really campy and fun trailer from the fifties. Definitely one of the best PD DVD's available.

 

[DaveyM]

I bought a copy of Dementia 13 from a company called Ovation. It only cost $4 and the quality isn't bad. I was told the Roan version is better.

On the back cover it says "This DVD is a high quality MPEG 2 compression". I have never seen this on any other Dvd before and i'm not really sure what it means.

I can't help but wonder why this movie hasn't recieved better treatment on Dvd because it deserves better than this.

Davey M.

 

[Michael Elliott]

Roan released DEMENTIA 13 with a trailer and audio commentary. Brentwood, Madacy, Alpha and a couple others have released versions but I haven't seen them. The Roan disc is decent but there are still a lot of problems with it.

 

[Damin J Toell]

So it's likely copyrightable but hasn't really been given a legal test then?

That's my opinion, at least. In my research, I've only been able to dig up a case involving a P&S transfer of a public domain scope film (McClintock!, and the transfer was found to be copyrightable for the sole reason that the P&S process requires original choices in reframing. I think this line of reasoning can be extended to color restoration, film defect removal, and the like (at least in extreme instances), but I'm not sure how reliable of basis it would be for copyright protection.
At it's theoretical heart, a telecine involves no more orignality than a photocopy of a page in a public domain book. At that extreme, I think any competent legal expert would not find sufficient originality for copyright protection. The big question is: how much originality is enough? The general tone of opinion that I've seen (which don't involve films) has been that something substantial must be added. So a straight OAR telecine with only minor color correction, etc., may well not be sufficiently original for copyrightability. What kind of modifications can be substantial? Presumably restoration work that involves creative choices on the part of the restorers (think Robert A. Harris and James C. Katz recreating the color of Vertigo). By "creative" here, I don't mean to imply "completely made up," but rather involving aesthetic judgment. If Vertigo were in the public domain, and Harris and Katz did their restoration job in the same manner, I think it highly possible that their restored version would be copyrightable.
DJ

 

[Michael Elliott]

If I'm not mistaken the colorized version of NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD has a copyright.

 

[Bill Burns]

Barrie -- I mentioned earlier that UAV's Royal Wedding was one of the worst discs I've ever tried to watch -- worse than anything I saw from Madacy back in the day (the day before I wised up and stopped buying unreviewed PD material ), and even worse than the worst three-strip major studio release I've seen: Show Boat, which so desperately needs a restoration/remaster. So I'd avoid UAV's RW like the digital plague -- but I understand there are other transfers out there that might fair a bit better.
Allow me to one last time turn everyone's head toward Roan's Dick Tracy Collection; seriously, it looks like major studio product -- B&W grade A classics from this period have rarely looked any better without expensive restoration, and these are of course grade B detective programmers. Roan outdid themselves with this release (much as they did with their gold laserdisc release of The Trial), save only the use of two DVD-10s rather than DVD-9s, and the current price is a steal. Bargains in non-studio land rarely tempt the wallet so compellingly, and more rarely still deliver on their promises and then some. If only most of Roan's other DVD product were so stellar.
Regarding Roan's White Zombie -- I haven't watched it in years, but back before I realized PAL conversions could cause such a thing, I noticed and was dismayed by motion blur on this title. It was all the more dismaying given the glowing reviews quoted on the back cover. If a better edition exists, I'd love to locate it -- and it's possible this motion blur (note faces, in particular, during scenes of sudden head movements) is due to the presumably heavy digital filtering and processing Roan must have used to "restore" the film. But it looks just like PAL conversion in retrospect -- I'll have to revisit my copy soon and determine this more certainly (I didn't check for freeze frame ghosting the last time I watched it). The supplements (including a vintage interview segment and a commentary) are of solid value, though, and I recall a pleasing contrast range in the transfer.
As to Mr. Wong -- I'm not sure if we've pinned down the company (John's comments are much appreciated and make Triton a very likely candidate, but this is a group of six films, not three ... I looked up Falcon Pictures Group, mentioned by that other website, and from what I can find they're involved in radio shows! Hmmm). If anyone's seen the new Wong set, the company name's undoubtedly on the back, but most importantly: how do they look? I'd love to find a comparison with Roan's set, which again is more than twice as expensive ($60 MSRP versus $25*). If these are Triton, and if the transfers were taken from Roan, then the Roan set is the obvious winner, ethically and qualitatively.
* I'm never one to immediately call to mind useful turns of phrase, such as, oh, "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."

 

[Jay E]

...and don't buy anything from "ALPHA VIDEO", it's all crap!!!

Definitely not so. Please don't make a blanket comment like that when it's obvious you have not seen all of their releases.
I've bought about 50 Alpha titles so far and I would say that as far as low-budget DVD releases go, they are better than average. There are some titles that are pretty bad,(Shock, Day the Sky Exploded, Fear in the Night), but these have been the exception. Most of their releases have been satisfactory to very good. Now quality-wise we're not talking about catalog titles put out by major studios, these are $5 budget titles after all. But compared to other ultra-cheap DVD companies on the market, they are clearly way ahead.
I'm preparing a list rating the quality of each of my Alpha releases. I will post it as soon as I'm finished.

 

[Larry Sutliff]

Regarding Roan's White Zombie -- I haven't watched it in years, but back before I realized PAL conversions could cause such a thing, I noticed and was dismayed by motion blur on this title

There is one scene that has motion blur-when Robert Frazier rides on a coach with a zombie-but I don't remember seeing any other motion blur. Roan did the restoration themselves in California, so I don't think it's a PAL problem. It's probably just the condition of the source material; they cobbled the restoration together from various sources.

 

[Derek_McL]

Barrie a few thoughts on the editions I own of some of those films you mentioned.

I have quite a good DVD of Till The Clouds Roll By (1946) ; a not bad film worth adding to your collection considering the dearth of MGM musicals of the 40s. The picture quality is reasonable for a public domain title though I'm sure Warner if they ever released this could do better. This is from Eureka Video and runs 135 minutes which is the full-length version I've seen quite a few editions in Region 2 which have obviously been cut.

I don't know if anybody can beat Marengo Films' Santa Fe Trail : it really is an excellent transfer.

I was disappointed though by Orbit Media's Road To Rio : it looked as if it had been sourced from a dodgy video tape but I still enjoyed the film.

I suppose I don't have that high standards concerning many old films' transfers and can generally still enjoy it unless its truly abysmal and you paid a lot for it. DVDs generally pd and non pd are going down in price so I rarely get into that situation.

Just a few weeks ago I bought a £5 ($7) boxset of three Film Noir thrillers : Detour (1945), The Fast and the Furious (1954) and DOA (1950)from Siren DVD. I watched Detour yesterday and enjoyed it but the print was pretty poor with splices, grain and dialogue drop-outs. It wasn't so bad I couldn't follow the film and for less than a couple of pounds acceptable. The film is quite good but no classic and this version suits my needs : some of the time it looks great.

Silent films are slightly different because they generally tend to be more expensive though buying a cheap transfer here is quite good if you are unsure about a film. The problem with some silents is that they exist in masters which leave a lot to be desired anyway with contrast problems, speckling and decomposition apparent in some full price releases. The only way I've really lost out in buying the Reel Values Triple features is in some of the orchestral accompaniements.