Lost: Season Six (1 Viewer)

[Jeremiah]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


What site/s?

 

[Tim Gerdes]

Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino

"Which means the label "Purgatory" really doesn't fit, and half the discussion since the finale aired is moot. "

Then you obviously need to learn more about Christian religion to make such an unfounded statement which you simply don't understand. It will take quite some time, but read ALL you can about Purgatory. Once you do, you will see how wrong you clearly are on that statement.

It's been many, many years since my CCD (Catholic Christian Doctrine) classes, but like Joe my understanding of Purgatory is of a place of punishment and purification. If you have some references that suggest another concept, it might help to share them, rather than simply telling people that they're wrong.


And regarding the Lost representation of "purgatory," unless I am further confused about the Christian meanings of the yin and yang, star of David, crescent moon & star, aum and dharmacakra, I'd still maintain a Christian concept of Purgatory is ill-fitting and moot.

 

[mattCR]

Originally Posted by Tim Gerdes It's been many, many years since my CCD (Catholic Christian Doctrine) classes, but like Joe my understanding of Purgatory is of a place of punishment and purification. If you have some references that suggest another concept, it might help to share them, rather than simply telling people that they're wrong. And regarding the Lost representation of "purgatory," unless I am further confused about the Christian meanings of the yin and yang, star of David, crescent moon & star, aum and dharmacakra, I'd still maintain a Christian concept of Purgatory is ill-fitting and moot.

Argh, I said I would check back and I won't go into a huge debate, but thought I'd add in with this. "Purgatory" has had lots of historical meanings for those that believe in it. (See several posts I've had before on different theological views on purgatory, which vary greatly). But the rundown: Modern Catholic doctrine is that purgatory is an a place for those who have sinned, but have died without mortal sin on their soul, etc. to go and shall face the trials of their sin; that they have to come to term with their faults and largest sin through a journey of sorts to refine themselves before they are presented at the gates of heaven. (this gets into something I'll mention at the end)(1). Their have been four real official ratified statements regards to purgatory by catholics, the most recent in 2005, in which those in purgatory are reliant on prayers from those of us on earth, as well as their own personal pilgrimage of their transgressions in order to welcome themselves into heaven(1) That having been said, modern catholics - and by modern I mean everything since Thomas Aquinas have professed that Purgatory is NOT NOT NOT a place of punishment. It is not designed to punish, per se.. although it could be made that way. In 2005, in the Compendum of the Catholic Faith, it was further made clear:

210. What is purgatory? Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven. 211. How can we help the souls being purified in purgatory? Because of the communion of saints, the faithful who are still pilgrims on earth are able to help the souls in purgatory by offering prayers in suffrage for them, especially the Eucharistic sacrifice. They also help them by almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance.

As far as Catholics are concerned, purgatory is not necessarily a painful horrible trial. Neither is it true in Eastern Orthodox or other faiths. The idea of Purgatory is that it is a pilgrimage. Some have described it as a "quest" to set to rights your life. While other areas do see it as a potentially painful etc. test, Catholics see no such thing, or at least the doctrine of the church doesn't, in fact, they view it as people in the state of being friends of god, on a journey to happiness who simply haven't obtained it yet, but must find what can get them there. Eastern Orthodox really are the ones who set the guideline that gets referenced much more often, and despite your personal faith, and how small it is in comparison to others, when most people think of purgatory, they think of the Eastern Orthodox view on it. While Catholics as a matter of practice pronounce it as a pilgrimage held in the afterlife of refinement, they do so without really getting into it as a trial. Eastern Orthodox pronounced it in Jassy, 1642, as "Purgatorial Fire" a sense that in purgatory, each person is put to a series of tests of sorts, suffering, and cleansing to ready themselves for Heaven. After they have completed these tests, they must present themselves for judgement before the gates of heaven (1) Islam doesn't really follow a "Purgatory" but more that hell is a situation you can escape through good deeds, that their are numerous levels of hell, and that your action to be cleansed can free you from that state. Most (though not all) protestant faiths reject the concept of their being any purgatory, and that the journey after life is pretty much cut and dried: you are saved or not. This is largely due to the fact that most reject the book of Macabees from their bible, and therefore there is no scriptural references for purgatory to exist, so they view it as somewhat heresy. However, there are protestant faiths that have, over time, come to varying acceptance of purgatory, though none to my knowledge believe that prayers for the dead matter at all, which is a strict contradiction with the Roman Catholic/Mormon/Eastern Orthodox view The Mormon view is really complex, revolving Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms, placement of prayers, etc. Now, this is the thing, even amongst those who believe you are "saved", entrance into heaven isn't a lock. A lot of faiths and many times have tinkered with what saints and writers have called by many terms, but I tend to view as (1) Peter's Passage. This is where the soul presents itself before heaven and asks for entrance. A lot of faiths have used this as reference to the bible that as beings empowered by God with free will, in the end, we must accept our place in heaven, or wander aimlessly, basically. So, even if you are ready to enter, in many faiths, you still have to be able to walk through the door. I thought that was a big part of the whole point of the stage in LA, where they had to present themselves in the Church and that Jack was clearly given a choice as to whether he would enter or walk away. He was not compelled nor required to walk in, he could have ran away, he chose to walk in, he presented himself, which is important in many Christian denominations. I'm going back and rewatching some of the series. I do like a mystery. I would tend to agree with the above. I'll stay out of the debate of opinions here, but I find the show interesting because of it, and over the last few days, I've read a lot of different perspectives that while I disagree with their conclusions, I felt really interested in how they got there. I like the reference to a painting. Lots of people can look at a painting, listen to a song, and take from it very different things. Good art is like that. (and I can't believe I've spent so much time on faith as an agnostic myself in discussing the show, that's why I enjoy it)

 

[Paul D G]

Originally Posted by TravisR

I completely agree that they deliberately tricked the audience by showing the sunken island at the beginning of the season but I'm glad they did it. Without the sunken island, I think people would have started speculating that it was 'the other side' a few episodes in and I was much happier being surprised by that reveal than thinking "Oh, that theory that I read online back in March was right."

I've read a few comments online about the sunken island and people confused about all the detail in the flashback (like what the whole point about Siyad finding his former love is married to his brother, etc), and what the island actually IS. To that I say: geez, people, at the end of the day it's still a freakin' tv show. They have a right to throw in a red herring or two to keep you guessing, and some things are just devices to tell a story. It's like walking out of Herbie Fully Loaded and bitching about how they STILL didn't explain how the car can be a alive and aware.

 

[DaveF]

Originally Posted by PaulDA

With Lost, consider the Numbers. Once people fixated on them, it seems to me they started throwing in more of them for fun, a sort of Where's Waldo. But every instance didn't mean something. They may have stacked the mysteries too high and deep, and that's how people got turned off along the way; and then the bunch of people in the end when it turned out that yes, this was a trick and that was a trick, and no we're not to go explain all these things.

The problem with mythology shows is that they became so entangled and burdened in the weight of their complexities, the collapse. The numbers in Lost are one of those entanglements: they were a true part of the mythology but were eventually discarded when the writers found they they had lost track of where they were going with them. It's an honest problem with these shows. Disappointing, but it always happens.


The cuts with Sun and Jin are for dramatic tensions, and I find add impact to such episodes.


The sideverse, though, is a clearly planned effort to deceive the viewers to keep us from deciphering the show before the end. It doesn't add anything, for me, to the depth. The sunken island, in particular , is part of the lie, put there solely to mislead. There is no such thing, and certainly not in the sideverse. It was a red herring to deceive us into thinking the sideverse was an alternate reality caused by the H-bomb.




Back to my other questions: Was Jacob a vengeful god, eradicating Dharma? Or was Richard simply an idiot, allowing the Others to be mislead by Smokey?


If none can come to the Island, but as Jacob brings (as Josh, I thought explained), how did so many people get to the island who oughtn't be there?

 

[TravisR]

Originally Posted by DaveF
Back to my other question: Was Jacob a vengeful god, eradicating Dharma?

This is just my opinion but I don't think Jacob had anything to do with the purge one way or the other and Widmore (as the leader of The Others) made the call to kill them. While Jacob gave orders to The Others via Richard, I think he wanted to observe the people on the island rather than constantly dictate orders to them.

 

[Mikah Cerucco]

Jacob wasn't a god.

 

[Holadem]

"If none can come to the Island, but as Jacob brings (as Josh, I thought explained), how did so many people get to the island who oughtn't be there?"


I don't think everyone who shows up there is brought by Jacob. As Ben explained in Season 3, people traveled from all over some country to see a patch of grass that vaguely looked like the face of the Virgin Marie -- what would people do to get to this Island?


Thats why I never required answers to questions like how did the Dharma initiative knew about the Island, or who built the statue and the temple; The Island has been around for a long time. Word gets around.


People who have left it probably never talk about it. But sometimes they do. Hurley told his mom. Kate told Sawyer's ex-girlfriend. Those people will tell others, most of who will not believe it. But some will. And eventually, word will reach someone who believes it, has the desire AND and the resources to go looking for it. And a tiny subset of those will succeed (Dharma). A fabulous place like that will always attract the powerful.


This is not a knock on the show (I have plenty of those), but purely from a geek perspective I would have liked a clearer idea of Jacob's powers. Does he leave the Island using conventional means? Does he have some way of seeing the future? He knew Locke was going to fall from that window. And that might also explain why he chose Kate and Sawyer as children, knowing what kind of life was ahead of them. Otherwise, his claim that he picks people because they were miserable and searching for something they couldn't find is completely bogus as applied to children. Or it reveals a cynical determinism that conflicts with his purported predilection for free will (as in, "these 8 year olds are already fucked up for life, might as well claim'em now...")


--

H

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

This was a hoot. From Woot. I especially like numbers 5 and 8.


Ten Spoilers To Ruin The Lives Of People
Who Had To Wait Until Tonight For The End Of LOST

by Scott Lydon on May 24, 2010 at 10:30 AM

1) Kate went back in time and had sex with Jacob, then told him it
didn't mean anything and then ran off with the Smoke Monster and
that's how the whole thing began.


2) Alt-Universe hipsters are all blogging about "Embarrassing
Driveshaft Private Party (1 of 10)" on YouTube this morning.


3) Desmond admitted that he's really Irish, he just cultivated the
accent to get girls.


4) On Jimmy Kimmel, Lindelof and Cuse told everyone that they stole
the entire plot from George Clinton's 1976 album "The Clones Of Dr.
Funkenstein".


5) The last scene is Mr. Roarke and Tattoo arriving to rebuild their
luxury hotel and start welcoming guests.


6) The reason for all the weird inconsistencies is that the whole
thing was masterminded by Mac from It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia
and he kinda made it up as he went along.


7) The first new show to have any sort of open-ended mystery is going
to be swamped by desperate nerds who cling to it like a sloth to a
vine.


8) Somewhere Jack Shephard and Captain John Sheridan are sharing a
drink and complimenting each other on their conflict resolution
skills.


9) Target's about to have a really good week.


10) It was all just that kid from St. Elsewhere doing his philosophy
homework.


from www.woot.com

 

[BrettB]

Joseph, unless I missed it I don't think you've really posted your thoughts since the finale. WTH?

 

[Malcolm R]

Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino /forum/thread/295107/lost-season-six/1770#post_3695823

 

[NeilO]

Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino



5) The last scene is Mr. Roarke and Tattoo arriving to rebuild their
luxury hotel and start welcoming guests.


8) Somewhere Jack Shephard and Captain John Sheridan are sharing a
drink and complimenting each other on their conflict resolution
skills.

Those are my favorites as well. It is good that people has a sense of humor about this.

 

[NeilO]

By the way, I started recording from 10 PM on Saturday night in order to get the Aloha to Lost again (WJLA first broadcast it in 4:3 SD). It appears that it did start near 10:05 which means the rebroadcast of the finale really was about 2:05 including commercials. I have no idea what they cut out to reduce the broadcast time.

 

[Vaughan Odendaal]

In the end when Jack met up with his friends at the church, I'm surprised he didn't give Locke a hug. I mean, he gave both Boon and Sawyer a hug. Locke and Jack had been through so much on the island and all they got was a hand shake. Didn't seem right to me.

 

[Vaughan Odendaal]

Another thing, not sure what the big deal was with the MIB escaping the island. Apparently all life would be destroyed, at least that is what was implied but after the cork was removed from the light he was just a mortal man, incapable of causing much harm on his own. I don't know, I just didn't see the point.

 

[TravisR]

Originally Posted by NeilO
It appears that it did start near 10:05 which means the rebroadcast of the finale really was about 2:05 including commercials. I have no idea what they cut out to reduce the broadcast time.

I don't know what was cut (if anything) but I think it was only a couple minutes shorter than the original airing. The commercial breaks were shortened to a minute or two rather than cutting out 30 minutes of actual content. Unbelieavbly, it was like a network was actually more concerned with the show than the commercials.

 

[Mikah Cerucco]

Originally Posted by Vaughan Odendaal

Another thing, not sure what the big deal was with the MIB escaping the island. Apparently all life would be destroyed, at least that is what was implied but after the cork was removed from the light he was just a mortal man, incapable of causing much harm on his own. I don't know, I just didn't see the point.

One possibility is maybe life would be destroyed because of what it'd take (putting out the light) for MiBto be able to leave. We only saw the light out for a short time. In that time, we saw people with special abilities rooted in the light lose them. What's to say that after a more prolonged time, we (living beings) wouldn't lose more of the little portion we have within us and die? Also, what's to say that whatever was happening to the island (earthquakes, etc.) wouldn't continue to expand and happen to the rest of the Earth, possibly causing tsunamis, sinking whole continents, etc. until life is no longer viable on Earth. I'm not ready to call it a plot hole or misdirect because we didn't really get to see it play out.

 

[pitchman]

Originally Posted by NeilO

By the way, I started recording from 10 PM on Saturday night in order to get the Aloha to Lost again (WJLA first broadcast it in 4:3 SD). It appears that it did start near 10:05 which means the rebroadcast of the finale really was about 2:05 including commercials. I have no idea what they cut out to reduce the broadcast time.

I watched season six of Lost via an iTunes season pass. The full program length (no commercials on iTunes) is 1:45:39. That means during the original 2.5 hour broadcast, ABC aired roughly 45 minutes of commercials. My guess is they simply cut down on the number of ads scheduled for the rebroadcast.

 

[JediFonger]

there's a forum post that has been going around the web like wildfire, but i've never been able to find the source of it, but here it is (supposedly from a writer of Lost):

Originally Posted by Lost Writer?

The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

Now...

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.

 

[John_Lee]

Originally Posted by JediFonger

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

Desmond and Penny?