Does speaker wire honestly make a difference? (1 Viewer)

[Jongyoon Lee]

The very first one is always the most memorable. It was between 14 guage Monster cable and Cardas Neutral Reference. Monster cable was about 6-7 feet in length, and I believe Cardas was 5 feet long.

 

[Chris Tsutsui]

If I noticed a difference in speaker wire, I would buy monoblocks and have to do some modding to connect the amps directly to my speakers.

No speaker wire pwns speaker wire...

 

[Dick Boneske]

Mr. Lee,

Thanks to many people's input, this is one of the best discussions about wires I've seen.

When you heard the comparison of Cardas vs. Monster wires, didn't it seem strange that a 4'& 5' piece of wire would create a "mind boggling" effect on sound quality? At those short lengths, you are approaching the length of the wires inside the power amp and speaker cabinet(especially a larger speaker system), which certainly are not of any exotic design. Usually wires inside the amplifier chassis are 18 gage solid tinned copper. Most speaker cabinets have stranded tinned copper wire of about 16 gage.

Your comment on wires making the sound "better" reminded me of the vacuum tube and vinyl fans. It is true many people prefer the vacuum tube mellow sound over any solid state amp. Vinyl records can also sound very smooth and mellow.

IMHO, most of us select each component for our system that reproduces as closely as possible the program source. Speaker grill cloths, acoustic-absorbing material in the listening area, ceiling height, listening position all affect what we hear. We all decide what kind of sound we like and make some kind of a compromise-unless we live in a one-room apartment.

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Actually, I believe the folks who say they’ve heard a difference between large vs. small gauge speaker wire. I also believe those who say they haven’t.

What’s missing from this discussion (and from all other cable discussions) is that no one bothers to tell us what kind of system they’re using. For instance, I wouldn’t expect anyone to tell a difference one way or the other with your typical HTIB. On the other hand, I’d be surprised if someone with a $20k system couldn’t tell a difference.

Also, no one takes into account that the speakers they’re using will probably play a critical role in what they may or may not hear.

Personally, the first time I swapped out my speaker wires for larger stuff, it was a revelation. I was using a 20-25 ft. run of something like 20-ga. wire. Don’t remember exactly why I decided to change it for some bigger stuff one day. Maybe it was because I had seen the hulkin’ stuff they used with PA systems and it seemed like a good idea. I changed to 14 ga. wire, and could immediately hear a difference. The bass was tighter, and the highs opened up – clearer and less congested. Mind you, I was not expecting to hear any difference at all.

Knowing what I do now, I shouldn’t have been surprised. The speakers I was using were 4-ohm nominal with 2-ohm drivers. With impedances that low, it should be a no-brainer that reducing the speaker wire’s resistance would make a difference.

I would likewise to expect esoteric speakers that are known to be a difficult load to give similar results. Typically they are a difficult load because their impedance drops very low in places. Anyone who has seen an impedance curve for a speaker knows that the speaker’s impedance changes with frequency. If a speaker’s impedance drops particularly low at certain frequencies, then it makes sense that resistance added by small-gauge speaker cable could easily affect the way the speaker sounds at those frequencies. And it makes sense, in that situation, that changing from small- to large-gauge speaker wire would make an audible difference (hopefully better).

It logically follows that speakers with higher-ohm drivers may not respond as dramatically – if at all - to a change to larger wire as speakers with lower-ohm drivers. It also follows that speakers with a linear impedance curve will probably not respond the same as speakers whose impedance at places dips to very low figures.

This is why you get varied responses from people as to whether or not heavy-gauge wire made their speakers sound better. Obviously it depends on the particular speakers involved. It might be unwise for anyone to consider their particular experience or experiment as the “be all, end all.” If you ever find yourself with different speakers, you might not get the same results. I haven’t experimented with any speakers I’ve had since the 4-ohmers, but I’d be surprised if I had the same results, since they’ve all been 8-ohm with shorter wire runs.

The unpredictability factor is why I usually recommend using 12 or 14 ga. wire, when budget allows and application permits, especially for longer runs. Will it make an audible difference? Maybe, maybe not. But do you really want to go through the time and expense of buying speaker wire in various lengths and gauges and conducting listening experiments? Just go with the big stuff and be done with it.

For the record, I’ve recently switched from 12 to 14 ga. wire in our new place. I needed some ultra-flat wire for my fronts, and the stuff Radio Shack sells was all I could find locally. For the rears, I was able to get some CL-2-rated for free, so I used it. The runs are pretty long, probably over 100 ft., but I don’t lose a lot of sleep over the rear speakers.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Dick Boneske]

Wayne,

There is little doubt that smaller gage wire (18 or 20) would degrade the signal with long runs, espcially 4 ohm speaker systems. You didn't say anything in your post about the exotic speaker wires that, in some cases, cost hundreds of dollars and claim to make your system sound better. I had suggested that if these wires sound different from 12 or 14 gage wires, they MAY be distorting the signal to the speakers. At audio frequencies, most electrical engineers (except those that design exotic wires) would agree that adequate sized copper or silver conductors--either solid or stranded, will transmit the amplifier's signal without distortion to the speakers.

 

[Jongyoon Lee]

Most electrical engineers would indeed say that.

And as you said, "those that design exotic wires", or someone who actually research acoustical physics on a daily basis as part of day job, may disagree.

Which of the two group is more credible, a bunch of college kids with a couple of semesters in electrical enginnering, or voodoo magic empire that sells $1000 speaker cables?

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Dick,

Actually, I did, in the second paragraph, but I guess I was too subtle.

You’re overlooking the fact that those guys typically have outrageously expensive equipment, $20-40k, or even more. It wouldn’t surprise me if they can hear a difference between the esoteric and the cheap speaker wire. Until I get a system like that myself, and hear it for myself, I’m not going to tell them they’re imagining things.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Jongyoon Lee]

Wayne, you'd be surprised if you knew that you don't necessarily need $20k system to be able to discern certain cables. The Monster cable and Cardas was used on a system with NAD two channel integrated amps and B&W CDM-SE speakers. The original equipment was, as you can expect, the Monster cable. We had an audiophile friend, who one day brought his Cardas speaker cable for his skeptical friends, including myself. And the rest is history.

 

[Chu Gai]

Wayne said...A difficult question. The former want to get screwed. The latter wants to screw you. I guess it comes down to whether you're a pitcher or a catcher.

 

[Dick Boneske]

Chu brought up some pertinent points. To answer his comment on my post: Esoteric wires that cause the system to sound different than conventional 12 or 14 gage copper wire (Romex, zip cord, etc.) are what I was referring to. There are a limited number of characteristics that esoteric wires could have that would audibly affect the signal. These include resistance, capacitance, and inductance. Extraneous noise pickup or standing wave problems are not likely at audio frequencies with lengths of 100 feet or less.

Exotic cables such as Cardas may very well have been intentionally designed with capacitance or inductance to shape audio frequency energy to something different than output by the amplifier. This is the most likely explanation for any audible difference in sound. It would be interesting to compare the resistance, capacitance, and inductance at various frequencies of 25 or 50 foot lengths of some of these exotic wires compared to 12 gage Romex house wiring.

As has been stated in this series of posts, there are listeners that prefer vacuum tube sound and vinyl over state-of-the-art audio. While these examples may sound "better" to some, accuracy is not the reason. The same applies to speaker wires. What sounds "better" to some is not necessarily the most faithful, accurate reproduction of the program source.

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Jongyoon,

Once again, you’re not paying attention to what I said (especially the part about “It might be unwise for anyone to consider their particular experience or experiment as the “be all, end al,” which adequately covers all the variables of uncertainty you mentioned). Therefore there’s no reason to comment further.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Chu Gai]

My apologies Wayne. I didn't mean to extend your thoughts past simple gauge considerations. Please accept this gratuitous valentines babe pic as a token of my profound sincerity.



BTW, I've got a paper by Fred Davis titled "Effects of Cable, Loudspeaker, and Amplifier Interactions" which appeared in the JAES in 1991. PM me with a valid email that can take a bit over a meg if you're interested.

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Hee hee, until she knocks on my door, nothin’ doin’!

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Dick Boneske]

She certainly could take your mind off speaker wires!!

Several of you commented on HTIB systems. You are right, those that buy these from Bose or Sony really believe these are great-sounding systems (these systems give new meaning to speaker wires and subwoofers). I like to watch their faces when they hear my old Infinity Quantum 2's with the mismatched ARLSTII's and AR3a as surround and rear surround speakers. They always ask what kind of subwoofer I use and where it is.

 

[Jongyoon Lee]

Ok, here's *my* theory.

Everyone would agree that if the speaker wires are the perfect conductor, it would not color or alter the sound in any way, and $5 lamp cord or $1000 exotic wires would sound the same.

What most people would assume is that the typical $20 speaker wires are closer to the perfect conductor that they actually are. Therefore, anything better would yield only marginal improvement.

I came to the conclusion that the typical 12 or 14 guage speaker wires are further away from perfect conductor than we think they are. And more expensive wires may sound different, and if indeed they are, then that's because the expensive wires are closer to the perfect conductor.

What is perfect conductor anyways? From my limited knowledge in electronics and physics, that would be something that would not have any resistance, capacitance, inductance, or attenuation of the energy. Having resistance will alter the flow of the currents. Having capacitance or inductance will alter the conductivity of different frequency range.

There is one other property that is typically overlooked when discussing wires, which is dielectrics. Dielectrics are poor electrical conductor, therefore they are used as insulation. The unfortunate side effect of being a poor conductor is dielectrics have capacitance. They absorb energy when the signal is present, and release the energy when the signal is passed. The amount of capacitance may be discounted in digital circuits, as the most effect it can have is skew the clock a little bit. But I'm not so sure if it can also be ignored in the analog signal, especially when the electrical energy being carried is eventually transformed to accoustic energy, or sound.

Until we have the technology to perfectly reproduce the sound through recording media, which I dare to say that we do not, I would remain humble and would not discount the effect on something as trivial as speaker wires.

There goes my $0.02 worth.

 

[Jongyoon Lee]

Nope, such claim would be as absurd as saying all speaker wires sound the same.

 

[Ralphie_B]

Dielectrics give rise to capacitance if they're separating two conductors. So I wouldn't expect the dielectric jacket around a stranded or single conductor speaker wire to be too significant. It's not like a coaxial cable, where the entire run is composed of two conductors intentionally seperated by a particular dielectric.

 

[John Garcia]

I don't discount it at all. Wire is definitely NOT a perfect conductor. I DO believe there is a difference in wires and connectors, but there are a few qualifying things that need to be pondered: If we take the AVERAGE system, say $5-10K not HTiBs or $50K systems, will these people gain a SIGNIFICANT improvement going with better speaker WIRE? How much do they need to spend to achieve it? Once it reaches a reasonable amount of cost vs the total system, what is the cost vs sound improvement and would that money be spent better elsewhwere? That's why I normally say wire should be the last thing money is spent on in a system.

 

[Arthur S]

John

I don't often disagree with you, however, well controlled double blind tests have shown that perhaps 1 in 10 listeners can achieve higher than 50% (no difference) in perceiving differences in speaker wires.

You would be surprised how little difference people can discern between 6 gauge solid copper car battery jumber cables , and the best sounding (in this particular test) 2 inch wide braided multistrand cable, when used as speaker wire.

I can't really comment on interconnects as they are so far down my list of priorities. For guys our age, having the wax removed from our ears will make 100X more difference than new interconnects

 

[John Garcia]

We're sort of saying the same thing in different ways What I'm getting at is, wire is not something that should be viewed as high in the priority list either If you want to spend money on your system, go for speakers, amplification, room treatments and proper calibration not wire & ICs.