A Few Words About While we wait for A few words about...™ The Rodgers & Hammerstein Collection -- in Blu-ray (2 Viewers)

[MatthewA]

So, whom at Fox do we contact about the color problems?

 

[bigshot]

So we have a stunning looking Oklahoma with botched sound

Oklahoma doesn't have botched sound. It has a remarkably wide dynamic range. If you go to the thunder crack at the end of the dream ballet, you'll discover that it peaks very high. The overall level is pushed down to accomodate the dynamic effects. They could have compressed the track and brought up the overall level, but instead they left it alone and kept the dynamic peaks in safe.When the volume is turned up, the sound is great. If it sounds muffled to you, it's probably because your amp doesn't have quite enough oomph.

 

[Mark Booth]

Balancing dynamic lows (such as the thunder crack) can be tricky. The Blu-ray for 'Kon-Tiki' also has a very wide dynamic range. So much so, that the sound of logs thumping together and some of the roar of ocean waves causes my A/V receiver to clip (circuit breaker kicks in) if I've got the master volume cranked up too loud. If I listen to 'Kon-Tiki' at my normal living room master volume setting of about -11db, no problems. But when we watched it in the Booth Bijou Garage Theater (larger space) I had the master volume set at -6 db and my receiver triggered the protection circuit breaker about 6 or 7 times toward the end of the movie.

Still, I would have preferred that 'Kon-Tiki' would have been encoded with the dynamic range a little more compressed so a -6 db master volume didn't trigger the circuit breaker protection.

Mark

 

[JoshZ]

As to the color of the sweater, the color is the color and all the lighting and film stock in the world could not make it the red it was in the iTunes cap because - it's not that kind of red.

You can photograph the same object with two cameras side-by-side loaded with different film stocks, and wind up with a different shade registered on each. Even in pre-digital days, quite a lot of manipulation was also possible during color timing.

Where do you think the red on the older video transfers came from? Color timing.

Now, I'm not saying the older transfers were correct and the new one is wrong. I don't have enough investment in the film to know the answer to that. Maybe you're completely right. All I'm saying is that the color of the sweater in real life is not proof of what it should look like on film. In most cases, the cinematographer would have worked with the costume designer and production designer to choose colors that would register the way he wanted.

I'm sure we've all heard stories about how the actors in black & white movies used to wear really garishly colored clothes because they produced the perfect tone of gray in B&W. A similar principle can apply even to color film stocks (to a lesser extent, obviously - you wouldn't make a green sweater look red).

 

[Michael1]

I think it's pointless to judge the color palette of a home video transfer on "how the film originally looked" because it's impossible to determine that, for very good reasons that many people on this forum have mentioned -- including but not limited to the important fact that not all prints had the same color palette, by any means.

So, bottom line, what's the best basis for an opinion on whether or not the colors in a new release are accurate? The answer seems pretty clear to me: If the flesh tones are obviously off, then I think it goes without saying that the rest of the colors are affected as well because there's not enough red in the image, or whatever. And if the image of an older color film seems to have an obvious tilt towards any part of the color spectrum, I think that's another strong clue that something is wrong, because movies just weren't made that way back in the day, although there have been several examples in more recent times -- "Magic Mike" springs to mind as one example.

Does anyone agree that these are the best criteria for juding the accuracy of the color of a new video transfer?

 

[Eastmancolor]

Regarding THE KING AND I, the HD streaming sites and previous DVD are the closest color and contrast-wise to the lowfade 35mm prints and 16mm IB Technicolor prints that I've seen. The IB 16's are the earliest representation available of the film's original color timing, because all the original Eastman prints of the era are now pink.

 

[Steve Tannehill]

There are some nice supplements on Todd-AO Oklahoma! including 2 Todd-AO shorts, kinescopes of Gordon McCrae and Florence Henderson singing songs, a commentary, a comparison of CinemaScope to Todd-AO and more. This is a nice package.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Here is one last entry, and will be my last. Hopefully Mr. Harris will chime in soon.

This is a comparison of the color palette; all the boosting and edge enhancement tricks that they do for SD DVD doesn't change that. In the SD capture, look particularly at the exquisite violet of Chulalongkorn's tunic. Then, see that color is a bland gray in the BR capture. Anna's skin tone is very natural looking in the SD DVD capture and her hair is red. The reds and oranges in the other costumes are vivid and lush. Irene Sharaff was a great designer and chose both colors and fabrics with precision and intent. Surely, as part of the creative team, she would not have worked so hard if she knew everything would turn out just another shad of gray. To quote Mr. Harris from his "Few Words" about "There's No Business Like Show Business" (IMO a beautiful blu-ray): "Proves that Eastman Color, properly handled, can give Technicolor a challenge." I have seen several pristine prints of K&I over the years; at the Plitt Century and The Hollywood Bowl. I will not claim a perfect memory, but what I recall about both is that the colors were so vivid and lovely. I am not claiming the SD reflects what it looked like in 1956, only that it has a broader color palette than the BR. Again, look at the color palette (especially Chulalongkorn's tunic and Anna's skin tone and hair color) and how the SD DVD has a greater range than the BR.

SD DVD:

KING_fin.JPG

BR:

KING_finBR.jpg

My Blu-ray of The King and I sure as heck doesn't look anything like the image shown here by Kevin. It looks much more detailed and not blown out at all. And mine looks substantially brighter than the subsequent image posted by Chuck.

Is my gear professionally calibrated? Nope. Just by myself with some of the various consumer discs that are available.

But in this particular frame, I can see all the pinstriping on Anna's skirt on my display. On my laptop, I cannot detect the stripes in any of these images.

One thing that I note is that I am missing some image on both sides of my screen. On the left side, my image stops at the pinky-finger of the female guard's hand. On the right side, I only see half of the gold doo-dad on the child's head (wearing the blue top). I guess I need to figure this out.

 

[Mark Booth]

My Blu-ray of The King and I sure as heck doesn't look anything like the image shown here by Kevin. It looks much more detailed and not blown out at all. And mine looks substantially brighter than the subsequent image posted by Chuck.

Is my gear professionally calibrated? Nope. Just by myself with some of the various consumer discs that are available.

But in this particular frame, I can see all the pinstriping on Anna's skirt on my display. On my laptop, I cannot detect the stripes in any of these images.

One thing that I note is that I am missing some image on both sides of my screen. On the left side, my image stops at the pinky-finger of the female guard's hand. On the right side, I only see half of the gold doo-dad on the child's head (wearing the blue top). I guess I need to figure this out.

Kevin has already admitted that he took a photograph of his TV for those screenshots.

Mark

 

[KPmusmag]

My point was only about the color, and based on Chuck Pennington's grab the colors were accurately represented. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

In any case, at this point I am setting that blu-ray aside and waiting to see what Mr. Harris has to say. If this really is the way K&I is supposed to look, then I'll just stick to the DVD which I find more pleasing color-wise and more in line with my memory. Or maybe just listen to the soundtrack album and leave the film in my memory.

Again, I apologize for any misunderstanding.

 

[bryan4999]

My Blu-ray of The King and I sure as heck doesn't look anything like the image shown here by Kevin. It looks much more detailed and not blown out at all. And mine looks substantially brighter than the subsequent image posted by Chuck.

Is my gear professionally calibrated? Nope. Just by myself with some of the various consumer discs that are available.

But in this particular frame, I can see all the pinstriping on Anna's skirt on my display. On my laptop, I cannot detect the stripes in any of these images.

One thing that I note is that I am missing some image on both sides of my screen. On the left side, my image stops at the pinky-finger of the female guard's hand. On the right side, I only see half of the gold doo-dad on the child's head (wearing the blue top). I guess I need to figure this out.

Yes, but if you look at the screen capture that Chuck provided in the next post, the muted colors are obvious, like the prince's shirt is grey instead of violet, etc. His post was only commenting on the color difference which I think is correct.

 

[Mark-P]

One thing that I note is that I am missing some image on both sides of my screen. On the left side, my image stops at the pinky-finger of the female guard's hand. On the right side, I only see half of the gold doo-dad on the child's head (wearing the blue top). I guess I need to figure this out.

Your TV must have some over-scan. I hope there are some settings in your TV menu that can turn it off.

 

[john a hunter]

There are some nice supplements on Todd-AO Oklahoma! including 2 Todd-AO shorts, kinescopes of Gordon McCrae and Florence Henderson singing songs, a commentary, a comparison of CinemaScope to Todd-AO and more. This is a nice package.

Are the Todd AO shorts in HD?

 

[Steve Tannehill]

Are the Todd AO shorts in HD?

Yes, but they don't have the live TV look of Oklahoma! at least not to my eyes.

 

[Doug Bull]

Looking at the caps, it looks like the "Cleopatra" colorist has been busy!

Was that the same colorist that worked on 'River Of No Return"?

 

[Mike Frezon]

Your TV must have some over-scan. I hope there are some settings in your TV menu that can turn it off.

I've been looking tonight--unsuccessfully. I'm using a Panasonic 55ST50 Plasma.

None of the settings in the "Picture" menu seem appropriate. The "Aspect Adjustment" menu is grayed out.

 

[Steve Tannehill]

Mike, I hope you don't spend too much time working over your display. If the picture looks good to your eyes, then so be it. I'm watching King and I right now and like what I see.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Oh I'm already on record, Steve, as happy with what I see of The King & I.

I just thought I had this thing set up correctly and am a little discouraged--in seeing those screen grabs--that I'm missing part of the image.

 

[Doug Bull]

all the original Eastman prints of the era are now pink.

EG.

No Blue Wash to worry about here.

Sadly the above scans are from one of those faded original 35mm prints from the 50s.

Doug.

 

[Noel Aguirre]

Oklahoma doesn't have botched sound. It has a remarkably wide dynamic range. If you go to the thunder crack at the end of the dream ballet, you'll discover that it peaks very high. The overall level is pushed down to accomodate the dynamic effects. They could have compressed the track and brought up the overall level, but instead they left it alone and kept the dynamic peaks in safe.When the volume is turned up, the sound is great. If it sounds muffled to you, it's probably because your amp doesn't have quite enough oomph.

My amp has plenty of "oomph" - it s the disc that doesn't, Also as others have said parts of it sound like its derived from a tunnel processor. The sound on the THX LD on the other hand was absolutely astounding.