What's a good replacement for my beloved Energy C-6s? (1 Viewer)

[JohnRice]

I’m simply stating there are extremely high performance and output sealed subs that offer the best of both worlds.

The only reason I'm posting here at all again is because what I said is being misrepresented. I'm talking about "high performance" subs, as in, more premium, expensive models. Good, sealed subs are expensive. They need especially good drivers and a lot of power. If someone is shopping for a $200 sub, they should probably go with a BIC or Dayton ported model, for example. If they want the maximum possible output for $500, they should probably go ported. If they are willing to spend more (over $1K to say the least) and want "The best of both worlds" my experience is they should consider a relatively more expensive sealed model.

People still mostly want ported subs, so manufacturers need to offer them. There's nothing dishonest about that. The best manufacturers also have plenty of sealed ones.

 

[bukun]

If people want ported sub because they are misinformed like I was, then I would love for a company to help educate rather than feeding into that to make a buck. We aren't talking about 200 dollar sub here, so these companies are doing a disservice imo even if they are doing it based on customer demand. In the long run, I think you are better off educating your customer base a bit rather than just doing that they want. Thats a lesson I learned a long time ago building products. People dont always know what they want. Like I didn't. They are good at problems but terrible at solutions. Sometimes you have to help them find the right solution rather than just building what they want. They will thank you in the long run.

 

[bukun]

Just some brief checks, but it looks like REL is a line with no ported subs. They do have some active/passives, but I don't see any ports. Maybe the 1510 Predator would be a good candidate. I'll keep digging, but that looks like a good alternative at this point.

 

[JohnRice]

The course and tone of this thread has me genuinely baffled.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

I'd say it's not really true that there should never be a need for ported subs... even at the higher end. It kinda depends... on the actual need. You can certainly generally get more bass from ported than sealed, but it does so at lower quality (to varying degrees). There's still a real trade-off as before. It's just that the trade-off has shifted (due to advances in tech/design) so that sealed has become much more viable for most people's space than before. But there may still be situations where one may still legitimately prefer ported, particularly for HT usage... whether it's due to cost and/or size/difficulties of the space.

IF you ask any of the decent sub dealers what to get, they will always ask you about your space and listening requirements to serve you best... and some aspects of all this will be subjective (even though people might sometimes come across as though not quite so).

Don't make it into some kinda crusade that essentially involves cutting one's nose off to spite one's face. There are some real snake oil and rather questionable companies and business models/operations in the industry (as usual) to be sure, but this isn't it. Go after Bose or Monster Cable instead for instance, LOL.

_Man_

 

[bukun]

The course and tone of this thread has me genuinely baffled.

Well now, baffles are a whole other conversation.

Its been very educational for me and given me a lot to think about as I catch back up on the state of the hobby. The research is half the fun.

 

[JohnRice]

I went down this road a few years ago, and it was former HTF owner Dave Upton (who has a lot more experience with a variety of equipment) who convinced me to go with premium sealed subs. He has three Seaton Submersive HP+ subs, and I ended up going with dual SVS SB-16 Ultras, and I doubt I will ever go back to ported subs.

The argument is always "ported subs have greater output" which is true. The problem is, output isn't the only factor of a good sub. Port noise is always a problem. No ports, no port noise... ever. So, the idea is to go for a sealed sub that is capable of more output than you'll ever need, then it makes no difference if a ported one is capable of higher output. Plus, if a sealed sub is over driven, it just rolls off silently. It doesn't get sloppy or ugly sounding, and it doesn't chuff or rattle, if it's designed well.

Having said that, I have a single SVS SB-2000 in my living room, which is supposedly insufficient for the size of the room, but I've never felt it lacked. Also, in that room, I don't really want to crank it up until the entire neighborhood can hear it. Sure, I'd like to have dual SB-3000s, just for that extra bit of visceral sense. Maybe some day, but it's not important.

 

[bukun]

Louder crap is still crap.

It makes sense that in the past it might have been needed for HT subs to rely on ports to overcome material and design limitations that held all but the best sealed subs from generating the raw power and air movement that people were looking for in an HT experience. Now that material design and sub design have grown more, that tradeoff is no longer needed and sealed subs can do everything ported subs can do and more. All that's left is a once true and now false narrative about the value of ported subs. Established ideas take a long time to die in any space. So it's not surprising that the older ideas would still linger. So I expect consumers to still cling to the old ideas.

But these sub manufacturers do know better, and they know that they are selling a inferior product probably to subsidize the cost of their better product lines for those that are smart consumers. It's not outright fraud like so many in this space can be, but it's still not the most ethical way to do business even if it is the most profitable. Luckily, I'm happy to focus on doing business with those that I consider ethical businesses hoping that letting my purchase dollars speak for me can help those businesses thrive. I'm not saying that you can't get a good sealed sub from SVS or HSU. I'm sure they make good ones. But I also want to support the overall business practices of the companies I buy from when I can. So someone who is a bit more forward thinking is a better fit for where I want to spend my money.

So long as sealed subs are the best of both HT and Music, even through music isn't really a concern of mine, I want the best for HT. It's communities like these where you can learn the realities of the market and avoid being taken advantage of by companies still trying to sell into the old narratives.

So I agree that they aren't on the level of the pure snake oil that we all know and love, but they are probably still below the bar of a company I'm comfortable supporting if there are viable alternatives out there. That's the part I'm still digging into.

 

[Sam Posten]

I’m pretty happy with my ported Hsu VTF-15f

Continuing to insist all ported subs are crap and that your opinion is the only valid one is going to make for a very frustrating experience

 

[JohnRice]

...and the assertion that manufacturers who even offer ported subs are dishonest just isn't valid. It doesn't make sense to refuse to buy a certain brand because they also make something you don't want.

 

[Sam Posten]

Yeah it’s like getting upset that ford still makes ICE F-150s when you’ve got a badass Lightning in the driveway

 

[JohnRice]

So... the first brands I suggest you look into are...

SVS
Seaton Audio
PowerSound Audio

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Think about it another way. Even some truly high end audiophile speakers are apparently using some bit of porting nowadays, which had surprised me a bit... NVM the relatively lowly ELACs we'd been talking about earlier and liking.

At the highest end, speaker makers do still seem to try to reduce or avoid the use of porting, but that's not always practical (both in terms of space and cost) if true full range output is desired. I'm sure there are complex design considerations/trade-offs involved.

Some makers definitely (still) do resist/avoid porting in their designs though, and some opt for certain other compromises like using passive radiators instead -- Thiel and Vandersteen both did that for many/most of their designs.

Tech and designs continue to evolve... and maybe the reality is what's practically best will often be somewhere in between... like the minimal use of porting (or alternative use of passive radiators) in some full range speakers... or making ported subs be (more) easily sealable (to suit the needs of the moment or situation) perhaps...

Such is the way across most fields it seems. No need to get our panties in a wad over this as some might say...

And one size usually doesn't fit all afterall. Just be glad we (still) have plenty of great options at reasonably affordable prices... and the Bose and Monster Cables of the world aren't forcing the good stuff out of business...



_Man_

 

[bukun]

I'm relying on better advice than mine, since I came to this with the old opinion that ported was still better for HT generally, but I have been disabused of that notion thankfully, so I better understand that is a misconception. A common misconception, but a misconception none the less. If it's a fact now that sealed > ported, opinion doesn't really factor into it much. It seems from what John was saying that people who favor ported over sealed still are just buying into the hype that has built up over years rather than being objective and understanding the current state of affairs. So it's less about opinion and preferences and more about the objective facts of the state of the industry. He mentioned that it would be difficult to change people's minds since people hold tight to those kinds of beliefs, and he even said that he is under no illusion that he will be able to change people's minds on the topic. But, since I'm just getting started again, I'm happy to have the guidance from folks with far more experience than my own and my own biases aren't strong enough to need deprogramming. I'm happy to shift my mindset to adapt to current circumstances. Maybe less so in other areas that I feel I know better, but certainly in the world of HT.

I'm also not here to yuk anyone else's yum, so I'm happy for anyone to buy and enjoy what they want. Makes no difference to me what someone else enjoys. I'm only referring to my own purchases and thought process.

Now if we want to talk about the relative quality and engagement of streaming content, we are in my wheelhouse and I can bring my day job research to the conversation, but in this equipment space, I'm just looking to learn for myself. Not guide anyone else.

 

[JohnRice]

...also, M&K's Push/Pull approach is an interesting way to address distortion. Their subs aren't exactly cheap, though. They've implemented a way of reducing distortion that's kind of a mechanical version of dual differential electronics. They use dual drivers in reverse orientation, so when one is moving forward, the other is moving backward. It's a completely different use of dual drivers than the more common opposing design, which has the drivers moving in opposite directions from each other to cancel resonances in the enclosure. Seaton and PowerSound have models using that design.

EDIT: I have to admit, I might have the details of M&K's approach a little wrong. I'm going from memory, which is a little foggy.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Well, you'll also need to consider that most people also aren't remotely like audiophiles at all. And although most of us here don't necessarily identify as audiophiles per se, we might as well be to the vast majority of consumers.

Our priorities definitely aren't mainstream.

Heck! My own priorities aren't quite the same as yours and others either. And if you ever actually talk to real musicians, you'll also likely find very few caring about this stuff. To them, you really should just attend live concerts/performances (or even join in the musicmaking) instead, and none of this stuff comes close enough to that real thing... and they have a point... although they might also be overreacting some and/or undervaluing this too much...

Me? I'm finding myself migrating toward the gray area(s) in between and started attending live performances (and getting a bit more involved w/ the musicmaking side), which I mostly hadn't meaningfully in decades prior (before my kids and I started taking music lessons).

Of course, that's the music side of this equation, but on the HT side, well, there are other considerations too. Most of us have budget constraints, which may or may not be connected to space constraints. And some of that may be stretched or constrained by the video presentation aspect of all this. What are you gonna spend on that part? How far are you willing to go and/or how close do you want to come to faithfully recreating the originally intended cinematic experience, which includes considerations like projection vs flat panel?

IF you budget say $10K total for your audio setup, what will you do for the video? Will you get a JVC NZ7 PJ that currently costs ~$10K (and they do have better, more expensive, but likely too much into the diminishing returns for you)? OR would you be satisfied w/ say the Epson LS12000 at 1/2 the price? OR will you only be happy w/ the largest OLED at those prices?

Me? I don't wanna downsize much, if at all, from 120" FP, so flat panels won't cut it (for the forseeable near future)... even though the argument could be somewhat similar to the sealed vs ported sub argument for some/many folks... And of course, there's also the little talked about issue that flat panels just don't look quite like originally intended projection, particularly of film, for the vast majority of the "film" catalog from prior decades...

_Man_

 

[bukun]

I wouldn't give up front projection as I actually like the ability to have a little softer image to compare to the theater experience, but if it had a mode for higher res events like sports, all the better. I dont want my movies to look like tv. But I've spent a lot more of my life working on and being around movies, so my preferences are stronger there.

My kids are finally old enough to be enjoying all the live music LA has to offer, so I spend most of my music time there. I love live music so much more than any recording, but that comes more from the experience than the actual music

Johns comment that I only think I like ported subs because I've never heard a good sealed sub really hit home. I think that's probably true of most people based on this conversation. Thats why I say ported is not a good solution for me these days. I dont want to compromise due to a narrative and a misunderstanding of my preferences. And if sealed is actually better for HT now. That's where I want to be. Anyone can buy what they want, but I want to be lead by the evidence where I can be.

 

[JohnRice]

Johns comment that I only think I like ported subs because I've never heard a good sealed sub really hit home. I think that's probably true of most people based on this conversation. Thats why I say ported is not a good solution for me these days. I dont want to compromise due to a narrative and a misunderstanding of my preferences. And if sealed is actually better for HT now. That's where I want to be. Anyone can buy what they want, but I want to be lead by the evidence where I can be.

People are very committed to the old concept about ported subs. And, it is absolutely true that with two equivalent subs, one ported and one sealed, the ported one will always be able to play louder. That's simple, undeniable physics. The problem is, that quote came about probably thirty years ago, when the variety of subs available was extremely limited. The SVS subwoofer line tends to be a good example of how people tend to be unreasonable about proving it to still be true. As I've said before, they will usually compare the SB-2000 to the PB-2000, with the specs that the PB-2000 has greater output capability. But that's an invalid comparison, because the SB-2000 is much less expensive than the PB-2000. The SB-3000 is the same price (sometimes it's been $100 more) as the PB-2000, so that's the sealed model to compare. When you do that, things get less obvious. Then, like I said, the SB-4000 is a huge step up in overall design, and it's only $200 more than the PB-3000. For me, that's an easy choice for the SB-4000.

Clinging on to habits and beliefs is a very basic human trait. Sometimes it's referred to as "Cutting the ends off the roast." (Look that one up...)

For over two years I've been trying to encourage people to simply consider a sealed model when they are looking for a new sub in the higher end. Four out of five times, they abjectly refuse to even give it a possibility, quoting the "output" line, and often actually getting rather outraged by it even being suggested.

 

[Mike Up]

There is still good ported subs and reasons to use them.

I called SVS and talked along time to 2 different salesmen. I told them what I wanted and what I wanted to upgrade to. I also told them I wanted to stick to a budget. For my size room and my want of accuracy for music, they recommended right off the bat, the SB-2000.

I was mainly wanting to upgrade for low end bass, that was my main priority. I went from a Velodyne CT-100 with 10" subwoofer that died, to a Klipsch R-120sw with 12" subwoofer. Velodyne was slot loaded (ported) and my Klipsch R-120sw is ported. The Klipsch sounded better than the 20+ year old Velodyne in most every way. BUT I wanted more low end, below 30Hz. Now my SVS SB-2000 shakes everything, that the Klipsch didn't.

For SVS subs, PB is their ported subs while SB is their sealed subs.

Since my room is considered medium sized, the SB-2000 works well with that. It likely would work well with a large room for 'me' but it's been reviewed to be best in a medium room. If I needed a 'cheaper' subwoofer that had more output than my SB-2000 for a larger room, I'm sure SVS would had recommended a PB-1000 Pro. It's been reviewed to offer more output for a larger room.

If you have a large room, are on a budget of $800 and mainly use your system to watch movies, the PB-1000 Pro would be the choice over the SB-2000 Pro.

Now my SB-2000 has been reviewed to offer almost equivalent performance as the newer SB-2000 Pro. The Pro version comes with room correction software. SB-2000 was $600 while SB-2000 Pro is $900. PB-1000 Pro is $800. So for nearly the same price, PB-1000 Pro and SB-2000 Pro, you either get more accurate sound or more ultra low bass output. Trade offs, and you have to decide what's best for you. But SVS can help you with the information you need. Some say they can't hear a difference between ported and sealed when it comes to better sounding bass. Being I had both subwoofers side by side, I can definitely hear a better difference in music. I hear bass instrument sounds that now sound real. My Velodyne CT-100 never sounded like that. It sounded more like the Klipsch R-120sw with less Punch and bit more muddy.

I kept reading on the HT forums from people who mainly use their subs for HT, how much better a ported sub was. So I called SVS about maybe changing over to a more expensive PB-1000 Pro. They told me, in my room, I wouldn't benefit from it's higher bass output but I would be losing on the accuracy I really loved in the SB-2000. Their recommendation was to hold on to the SB-2000 and if I ever had a want for more, my best option would the SB-3000. The SB-3000 is $1,100 or the same price as a PB-2000 Pro as John was pointing out.

Sealed subs do worse in very large rooms as they can't take advantage of room gain. So you would have to double up on the subs which would be a lot more expensive than the price of a single ported sub. So there's your trade offs again. So that's where ported subs really shine. Then again, there are many who use subs rated for smaller rooms in large rooms and are happy with their performance.

So ported subs and sealed subs have their own advantages over the other.

 

[bukun]

I had a velodyne 1215 for a few years back in the day. 12" front firing with a 15" down-firing passive radiator. It was a pretty nice little sub at the time. I went through a ton more after that including making a few, but that was a nice one for what it was.