What's a good replacement for my beloved Energy C-6s? (1 Viewer)

[Mike Up]

You mentioned having kids, but not sure if they're still fairly young or not, but if still fairly young, might wanna give extra consideration to floorstanders. My sense (and experience) is younger kids, maybe even in their early teens, are quite likely to mess around and/or accidentally bump into speakers and knock bookshelf ones off their stands, especially if placed (ideally) well away from walls... unless they're somehow firmly coupled to very sturdy (probably fairly hefty) stands.

I went with bookshelf speakers for the same reason as I have opposite experiences as you. At one time we had 2 kids running around the house, 3 cats, and 1 dog. Now just 1 kid, 1 cat, and 1 dog.

The animals all liked to play rough with one another, as did the kids! My Infinity Reference 2000.4 tower speaker got knocked over several times and left nice dents in the walls even though they were a couple feet away from the walls. The last time they got bumped and knocked over was their last. Something died in it and off to the garbage truck they went.

I now have heavy glass mount-it bookshelf speaker stands 18" tall. With only being 18" and heavy, they are less prone to being knocked over like these unstable tall and narrow tower speakers are today. Older tower speakers with 10", 12", and 15" woofers of yesteryear were so much more stable than these skinny things they got today. With a heavy, short stand, I tilt the bookshelf speakers up so the they meet the ear height. This is how many, shorter, large woofer, expensive speakers do as the larger KLH and JBL speakers.

They sound excellent that way. I also for good measure use a nylon strap to hold the bookshelf speaker to the stand, and also use another strap to hold it to my entertainment center so that it does not get knocked over. So far, so good! Knock on wood!

 

[bukun]

I just bought the Elacs Debut 2.0 B6.2 6-1/2" woofer & 1" tweeter bookshelves and the Elac Debut 2.0 C6.2 Center channel. They sound great and are affordable. The Debut Reference speakers are said to be even better. As far as a 3 way, unless it's absolutely needed, I rather stick to a simpler 2 way design. Less to get screwed up with crossovers and the such. Elac's tower speakers with the same drivers is a 3 way and I guess they are pretty good. I think they went 3 way mainly for frequency accuracy.

As far as subwoofer, I jumped on the SVS SB-2000 12" "SEALED" subwoofer as the sealed do better with fast attacking music as drum rolls. They brought this older model back for a limited time and now they are gone. I have 4 ported subs sitting in storage and one ported Klipsch 12" sub on my smaller media room system. The Klipsch ported sub just can't keep up with the faster music like the SVS sealed sub can. Plus I have room shaking bass with the SVS where the Klipsch doesn't come close to that in the low bass.

Without knowing your room size, you can get decent ported subs for movies from SVS. They aren't as accurate as a Sealed sub but I guess you don't need that in movies.

If you're using the whole garage as your HT and it's big, then maybe a SVS PB-3000 or PB-4000. If you're keeping your costs lower, the maybe a PB-1000 or PB-2000 would be better. The SVS 1000 subwoofers use a smaller voice coil and don't have shorting rings so they won't offer the performance of the upper models.

Good luck.

A buddy of mine that sells gear got me a steal on a pair of the debut F6.2s and the Debut 6.2 center. I have them up and running now and they sound great. I'm very happy with them for the cost for sure. I'm going to add 4 or the wall mount debut speakers for surrounds and atmos ceiling speakers in a week or so.

For a sub, I'm leaning towards the HSU VTF-15h mk2, but the svs pb-3000 is in the running as well. It'll probably by a last minute decision right before I pull the trigger on the order in a few weeks.

It's a pretty small room that the previous owner made into a recording studio, so it has excellent sound dampening and dimensions to kill standing waves. Since it's a small space, I can get great sound out of slightly smaller gear.

Thanks for the recommendations.

 

[bukun]

FWIW, if you're serious about the ELACs and might really want floorstanders, their current sale seems better than usual for those (whether the Debut or Uni-Fi 2.0s).

Also, if interested, they've apparently put the "Reference" versions (of both) on sale as well, which I don't recall seeing on sale before.

You mentioned having kids, but not sure if they're still fairly young or not, but if still fairly young, might wanna give extra consideration to floorstanders. My sense (and experience) is younger kids, maybe even in their early teens, are quite likely to mess around and/or accidentally bump into speakers and knock bookshelf ones off their stands, especially if placed (ideally) well away from walls... unless they're somehow firmly coupled to very sturdy (probably fairly hefty) stands. That's one (additional) reason I've gone w/ floordstanders (or similar) over the years... and budget floorstanders like the ELACs don't seem to compromise on sound quality like they used to more than a couple decades ago... although they do cost substantially more than the bookshelves...

_Man_

Luckily, they are a bit older now, so it's pretty safe and the room is dedicated with no reason for anyone to be up near the front soundstage, so they are pretty safe. I did have to deal with all of that years ago when I had my old set up. It's very nice to not have to worry about that too much anymore.

 

[Mike Up]

A buddy of mine that sells gear got me a steal on a pair of the debut F6.2s and the Debut 6.2 center. I have them up and running now and they sound great. I'm very happy with them for the cost for sure. I'm going to add 4 or the wall mount debut speakers for surrounds and atmos ceiling speakers in a week or so.

For a sub, I'm leaning towards the HSU VTF-15h mk2, but the svs pb-3000 is in the running as well. It'll probably by a last minute decision right before I pull the trigger on the order in a few weeks.

It's a pretty small room that the previous owner made into a recording studio, so it has excellent sound dampening and dimensions to kill standing waves. Since it's a small space, I can get great sound out of slightly smaller gear.

Thanks for the recommendations.

Great that it worked out for you with the Elacs. I thought about getting towers but I don't need the bass with my SVS SB-2000 as I have the B6.2 crossed over at 80Hz. I guess I could go lower but it sounds good there. Also, as mentioned, I was concerned with their very narrow profile and height.

The HSU with it's performance tested by Audioholics, seems to be right with the PB-2000 Pro as the PB-3000 tested better for output. The PB-2000 Pro is cheaper and the PB-3000 is more expensive. Did the HSU offer bass EQ and the such as SVS does? I'll have to check. I wouldn't use it personally and why I went without it on the standard SB-2000.

BTW, glad to see your considering models that can be sealed as well as ported. That way you can get a taste of heaven. Not as good as a model designed to be sealed but still better.

 

[bukun]

Great that it worked out for you with the Elacs. I thought about getting towers but I don't need the bass with my SVS SB-2000 as I have the B6.2 crossed over at 80Hz. I guess I could go lower but it sounds good there. Also, as mentioned, I was concerned with their very narrow profile and height.

The HSU with it's performance tested by Audioholics, seems to be right with the PB-2000 Pro as the PB-3000 tested better for output. The PB-2000 Pro is cheaper and the PB-3000 is more expensive. Did the HSU offer bass EQ and the such as SVS does? I'll have to check. I wouldn't use it personally and why I went without it on the standard SB-2000.

BTW, glad to see your considering models that can be sealed as well as ported. That way you can get a taste of heaven. Not as good as a model designed to be sealed but still better.

Yeah. My priority is pants leg flapping LFE in movies, and ports have always gotten me there better. Being designed to plug the ports can tighten it up for music listening, so it's a nice option. Agree that it will never be as tight as a sealed sub, but with my uses, I think ports will get me more bang for the buck. Long ago I had an active/passive setup that I really liked as well. Then I built an IB when those were all the rage. For now, and in my space, I think any of the options listed will get me there. And I'm sure I'll continue to waffle until I actually pull the trigger. With the HSU, I would have to do offboard EQ, so there is some additional cost there that probably puts me in the range of the pb-3000.

 

[JohnRice]

Yeah. My priority is pants leg flapping LFE in movies, and ports have always gotten me there better. Being designed to plug the ports can tighten it up for music listening, so it's a nice option. Agree that it will never be as tight as a sealed sub, but with my uses, I think ports will get me more bang for the buck. Long ago I had an active/passive setup that I really liked as well. Then I built an IB when those were all the rage. For now, and in my space, I think any of the options listed will get me there. And I'm sure I'll continue to waffle until I actually pull the trigger. With the HSU, I would have to do offboard EQ, so there is some additional cost there that probably puts me in the range of the pb-3000.

I think you're falling into a common mistake when comparing SVS models. Don't compare lines (aka: SB-3000 vs PB-3000) because their prices are not comparable. Compare what you get for the money, which means comparing the PB-2000 Pro to the SB-3000, which are the same price! When it comes to comparing the PB-3000 to the SB-4000, the 4000 line is an entire magnitude better sub, and the SB-4000 is only $200 more than the PB-3000.

Unfortunately, people have this "Ported is always better for movies" misconception pounded unto their skulls, and I hold no illusions about changing that. I'll just say that after having gone through this adventure myself over the decades, I'll take the SB-4000 over the PB-3000 every... day... of... the... week.

I suspect @John Dirk might comment on that idea.

 

[Mike Up]

Yeah. My priority is pants leg flapping LFE in movies, and ports have always gotten me there better. Being designed to plug the ports can tighten it up for music listening, so it's a nice option. Agree that it will never be as tight as a sealed sub, but with my uses, I think ports will get me more bang for the buck. Long ago I had an active/passive setup that I really liked as well. Then I built an IB when those were all the rage. For now, and in my space, I think any of the options listed will get me there. And I'm sure I'll continue to waffle until I actually pull the trigger. With the HSU, I would have to do offboard EQ, so there is some additional cost there that probably puts me in the range of the pb-3000.

The nice thing about SVS is that within 1 year, you can upgrade your sub. Just keep in mind that when you seal up the ports on a ported sub, it's still not as good as a dedicated designed seal sub. Having the option to seal up the ports will give you an idea how the sound will tighten up. If you like that sound, you can always upgrade to a more expensive sealed sub with SVS.

Not so much in the Home Theater Only community but in the combined Home Theater/Music community in forums over the years, everyone is trying to get the most accurate and realistic sounding equipment. Since ported subs are the so common with many makers not even making sealed subs, I went the ported sub way as well.

I never knew what I was missing with ported subs. You never know what your missing until you hear it. None of my ported subs sounded 'real'. They sound like they are all reproducing bass. My sealed sub sounds 'real' with the snap of the drum skin, to the definition. It's an eye opening experience. Ported subs sound good, but not as real as I hear from my SB-2000.

In movies, I think it helps but isn't as noticeable as music. My sofa, and pant legs shake, from the bass in my 16' X 15' X 8' living room. Sound and Vision Magazine tested my subwoofer, 19Hz at -3db and 15Hz at -6db. To me, that's much better than most of the ported subs out there in the same price range.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Yeah, I'd go for the sealed sub as well... certainly in how the various SVS models/lines are as @JohnRice points out.

Also, I don't think there's any need to make much of SVS's own proprietary EQ provided via their Pro lines. I'd think getting a good AVR/prepro w/ Dirac or Anthem's ARC or comparable calibration/tuning and/or adding something like REW and MiniDSP would be just as good, if not more desirable.

Afterall, unless you're "just" setting up a fairly minimalist 2.1 system for music playback, not HT, you're probably not gonna rely solely on SVS's sub EQ anyway... although you mentioned having a pro(?) level/quality, highly acoustically treated, studio space for this.

In any case, I'd think you're gonna want good calibration/tuning software built/designed into whatever good AVR/prepro you'd likely get going forward (or can just add REW and MiniDSP to the equation, if needed). Likely no need to spend extra for some subset of that in the sub purchase itself...

FWIW, I also just keep the ports on my Hsu VTF-3 Mk5 sealed all the time. When I bought it nearly 5 years ago, it was ~$250 less than now. IF I'm buying today, I might just go for the SVS SB-3000 (for about the same shipped price... though I think Hsu still might not charge me sales tax, which is kinda significant at nearly 9% over here in NYC) or maybe actually SB-4000 instead.

_Man_

 

[bukun]

I think you're falling into a common mistake when comparing SVS models. Don't compare lines (aka: SB-3000 vs PB-3000) because their prices are not comparable. Compare what you get for the money, which means comparing the PB-2000 Pro to the SB-3000, which are the same price! When it comes to comparing the PB-3000 to the SB-4000, the 4000 line is an entire magnitude better sub, and the SB-4000 is only $200 more than the PB-3000.

Unfortunately, people have this "Ported is always better for movies" misconception pounded unto their skulls, and I hold no illusions about changing that. I'll just say that after having gone through this adventure myself over the decades, I'll take the SB-4000 over the PB-3000 every... day... of... the... week.

I suspect @John Dirk might comment on that idea.

Price isn't a primary concern, so I'm not looking at price for price. Just looking for what I want to get out of it. I've had ported and sealed and active passive in the past and I did like ported better for movies so thats my lean for sure. Still exploring but id guess ill end up between the pb3000 and the vtf15, bit we will see where more time and research takes me.

 

[JohnRice]

"Sealed" is an extremely generic term. Subs have improved. Especially sealed ones. I tend to doubt you've ever owned a sealed sub even remotely like an SVS SB-4000 or SB-16 Ultra, or a Seaton Submersive HP+, etc.

But... like I said, I have no illusions of countering the extremely outdated talking line about them.

 

[bukun]

"Sealed" is an extremely generic term. Subs have improved. Especially sealed ones. I tend to doubt you've ever owned a sealed sub even remotely like an SVS SB-4000 or SB-16 Ultra, or a Seaton Submersive HP+, etc.

But... like I said, I have no illusions of countering the extremely outdated talking line about them.

Good call. Im lying about what I've owned.

 

[JohnRice]

Interesting response considering you haven’t stated what you’ve owned other than you’ve “owned sealed.” I’m simply stating there are extremely high performance and output sealed subs that offer the best of both worlds. I’ve said all I really have to say on the topic.

 

[bukun]

Interesting response considering you haven’t stated what you’ve owned other than you’ve “owned sealed.” I’m simply stating there are extremely high performance and output sealed subs that offer the best of both worlds. I’ve said all I really have to say on the topic.

Yeah. I've never owned anything good, but I chalk that up in part to never having anyone to tell me what my preferences are and to correct me when i have the wrong ones. I know now that what I think of as preferences are just my own stupidity and that preferences is just another word for misinformation. I'm ordering the sb-4000 and ill feel better knowing that if I dont love it, it just my fault.

 

[bukun]

Do you know a sub manufacturer that knows enough about subs that they don't make ported versions? I'm concerned that both hsu and svs are taking advantage of people with inferior products. There has to be someone out there that only makes quality gear. I dont want to support companies that prey on misinformed customers if I can avoid it.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Take it easy, Brian. That's not what John's insinuating. He's mainly pointing out a lot has changed and improved, especially w/ sealed sub tech/design, so what was true say 20 years ago when you first owned the Energy C-6's (and whatever else to go w/ that) does not apply today anymore, particularly if you'd consider the better options like SB-4000 on up (though Mike also feels the SB-2000 is very worthy in its price range).

Still, of course, doesn't mean ported subs can't ever be preferred anymore. There are gonna be compromises to be made w/ whichever choice, but sealed subs aren't nearly as compromised/limited as they used to be in terms of output and sub-bass extension... and John's pointing out, for instance, that one should really be comparing the SB-4000, not SB-3000, to the PB-3000, especially if the extra $200 diff isn't an issue, and see the gains to be had.

In the old days, you simply couldn't ever get the desired output and/or sub-bass extension w/ sealed subs. There were definite, real reasons for that, and the tech has advanced/improved substantially on those areas over the last couple decades to overcome those issues/drawbacks.

In absolute terms, sure, you can still get somewhat more output and extension w/ ported sub, but that choice isn't nearly as clear and needed anymore given how far sealed subs have come along... while gaining the other qualities/benefits of sealed sub design that you won't w/ ported.

In any case, sure, try it for yourself and see, especially if you go w/ SVS. SVS does seem to go above-and-beyond w/ their trial/trade-in/upgrade policy (that even covers shipping costs for the 30-day trial last I heard) afterall. That's one aspect you won't get from Hsu... though Hsu's offering might be modestly cheaper for the same output/performance -- well, their VTF-3 Mk5 certainly seemed the better value (for my consideration) back when I bought anyway, but maybe not anymore at current prices w/ SVS's current offerings.

_Man_

 

[bukun]

There has never been a shortage of snake oil salesmen in the home theater world, bit back in the day Hsu and SVS used to be trusted names. Its just sad to see them slip. I've got a lot to relearn about how things and companies have changed. Ill keep researching and trying to find reputable direction on what to buy.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Nobody here is suggesting to accuse them of being snake oil companies at all. It's nothing like that -- and yeah, we're definitely very aware of what you mean.

And of course, we all have our own biases/prefs however great or slight... and sometimes, we might come across a bit too strongly w/ whatever our convictions, haha...

Cheers!

_Man_

 

[bukun]

If its just brainwashing that leads people to believe that there as valid use cases for a ported aub these days, I dont love companies continuing to lean into that lie.

Its unfortunate that those narratives and distortions still run wild. But thats the value of a community like this that can help disabuse folks of those faulty notions.

I get that it can be hard for a company to shift quickly, but hopefully there is a player out there that is on the leading edge and not wasting people's time on sub standard gear. Sometimes you have to move away form the old favorites to stay on the front of technology advancements. Its tbe same in all industries I suppose. Still digging a bit to see who is the state of the art these days without biases from any pervious experience or lack thereof.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

I'd say SVS, in particular, would rather just give you the choice between their various options/offerings.

Hsu (and their business model) probably just isn't nearly large enough to offer similarly wide array as SVS, so that may be why they basically only offer ported subs (so far) that can also be used in sealed mode -- AFAIK, they also haven't updated their offerings in quite some time unlike SVS, which is indicative of their smaller business.

Again, there's no snake oil involved here (or John would not have included Hsu in his prior recommendation)... and the few of us who've spoken in favor of sealed subs here are definitely doing so w/ POVs leaning more heavily toward critical music playback than only/primarily typical HT usage where the average person may very well be more impressed and prefer the perceived greater, but also more boomy, less tight and well defined, bass of ported... and that's really nothing new. John was mainly trying to correct the old/dated notion that sealed subs can't put out enough sub-bass for convincing, impactful HT usage (while being better at critical music playback).

And if you do go w/ the Hsu or SVS PB series, you certainly can run them in sealed mode (as I have w/ my Hsu). I don't know how much real diff (in performance and quality), if any, there would be running the PB-3000 sealed vs SB-3000 for instance (though SVS probably provides some info on that... and you could also find reviews as well), but part of John's point is why waste the $$$ on a PB-3000 run in sealed mode (and w/ potential sealing issue) if you can do significantly better for just $200 more w/ the SB-4000 instead. Of course, you won't be able to switch between modes w/ the SB series, if that's something you want -- that's not something some like John and at least a few others feel worth the $$$ (and/or additional size/space needed) since they will simply use them sealed anyway... and I would lean that way myself as well going forward.

And SVS isn't ripping people off by charging that price on the PB-3000 -- it probably simply costs that much more to make the PB-3000 than SB-3000, and that's very visibly so...

Anyhoo...

_Man_

PS: Actually, I should correct myself about Hsu as I forgot they do also offer the ULS-15 that's sealed, not ported at all, so I guess that's their lone comparable to SVS's SB line (though the price diff isn't currently as great as SVS's SB vs PB series) for what that's worth...

 

[bukun]

Johns statement that its no longer the case that ported is better for HT even without considering music is convincing. That being the case, there really isn't much of a use case for ported since that used to be the big use case. Now that sealed is better for both, anyone pushing ported is just selling something and I tend to find that a little distasteful. I know it takes time to shift, bit id rather find someone that is focused on the best technology today and not living in the past. I should have some time tonight to dig in and see who is leading the way.