What Is The Deal with These "Lossless" New HD Audio Formats? I'm Not Impressed... (1 Viewer)

[Michael Reuben]

That's not what I said. I said that the "bitstream/PCM" settings are irrelevant, because you're using an HDMI connection for audio. The bitstream/PCM settings only apply if you're using a digital audio output (coax or optical). It says so right in the manual, assuming you're using the Panaonsic DMP-BD10A. See page 22.

So you can toggle those settings all you want. They won't affect what gets sent over the HDMI audio connection.

In the meantime, of course there are bitstreams coming over the HDMI audio connection, because the only thing a digital connection can do is transmit a bitstream of one sort or another. And since you have no settings that control what the Panasonic sends via HDMI (except for on/off), you might as well quit worrying about it. Your receiver is getting what it's getting and decoding it. Standard DVD tracks are playing normally, and your real problem with Blu-ray tracks appears to stem from false expectations, not from any misconfiguration or fault in the tracks themselves.

Unless you prefer getting yourself twisted up in words to watching movies, I strongly recommend adjusting the volume, sitting back and forgetting about all this format nonsense for a while. We're in a transition period, and it'll be a while before the dust settles.

M.

 

[Dave Mack]

I've heard that was excellent too, Stephen. Haven't gotten around to snagging it yet.
I finally finished my own album and it is off at the replication plant!



I listened to ALOT of records while mastering it and can't believe how LOUD and compressed and even distorted some current albums are. It's all about being loud and punchy on the radio or ipod or like Doug said, in the car. blech.

Nick. I wish you luck. I am actually leaning towards getting that onkyo myself.
Me for one, although I can currently only hear the 2.0 through optical pcm now through my pioneer, I put it in PLII and to me it sounds WAY better quality and dynamic range wise than the lossy tracks.

 

[Jonathan Kaye]

Why on earth would you think that uncompressed = louder? The whole point of lossless sound is that you're getting a better quality of sound, not quantity. CDs (lossless) have better sound quality than mp3 files (compressed); that doesn't make CDs any louder or "more forceful" than mp3 files, just a better quality of sound sampling.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

Are you sure about that? I belive that Bitstream/PCM does in fact have an effect on the HDMI.

Now I'm talking strictly lossless codecs here (i.e. DolbyTrueHD/DTS HD-MA):

For a player that is capable of passing the bitstream to the reciever, if you select Bitstream then it will pass the encoded audio signal to the reciever for the reciever to decode. The reciever will display 'Dolby True HD' or 'DTS - MA' on it's panel. If you select PCM, then the player itself will decode the signal and pass it to the reciever as a PCM signal (digital, yes.) The reciever will show 'MULTI CH IN' on it's panel.

The Bitstream/PCM setting for HDMI, in essence affects where the decoding of the singal takes place.

For a player that is not capable of passing the bitstream then the same thing happens, except for one exception. If you select 'Bitstream' and the player can't pass the full lossless codec, then what will happen is it will just decode the lossy 'core' version (what you get with SD DVD) and pass that to the reciever. If you select PCM, the player does the decoding, and passes the complete lossless signal to the reciever.

I'm speaking from experience, as I have the PS3, and am using the HDMI ouptut for audio. If I select 'Bitstream' for the audio out and play a blu-ray with Dolby-True HD, I only get the lossy core, as my reciever shows 'Dobly Digital'. Since I don't have a HDMI 1.3 reciever, I know that it is not the lossless signal getting passed to my reciever. However, if I select 'PCM' as the audio output method, then I get 'Multi Ch In' on my reciever, and the complete lossless soundtrack is being sent to my reciever.

Now, I will admit that I have no experience with Nick's player, and that I am assuming that the behaviour is similar on his player, but the Bitstream/PCM setting absolutely has an effect on the HDMI output.

Conversely, when I'm watching SD-DVD's on my PS3 the same rule applies. If I have the audio out set to 'PCM', all decoding is done in the PS3, and my reciever always shows 'MULTI CH IN' no matter what type of soundtrack I am listening to. If I set it to Bitstream, the decoding is done in the reciever, and the reciever shows 'Dolby Digital', 'dts', etc.

Thus for the PS3 the optimal setting for SD DVD is 'Bitstream' and for blu-ray, it's 'PCM'. And yes you have to go into the menu and change it each time you switch from HD to SD, and yes, it is kind of a pain in the ass.

 

[Michael Reuben]

There's no such setting for HDMI on the Panasonic player. The only audio setting for HDMI is on or off.

I'm aware that the PS3 may behave differently, but Nick has enough to worry about without adding equipment he doesn't have into the mix.

M.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

OK, I'll trust you on that, but it does seem a bit bizzare. I would expect every player to have some way of setting where the decoding takes place.

Let's say that you have a player that does pass the lossless bitstream. The player has no way of knowing if your receiver knows what to do with that signal, so there has to be some way of telling the player to pass or not pass that signal over the HDMI, especially if your receiver is not HDMI 1.3 compliant and cannot process that signal. If the audio settings do not affect the HDMI signal then you would be screwed if you had a player that passed lossless bitstream, and a reciever that could not handle it.

I realize that this is not applicable to Nick's player, but just something I would expect in general to apply to all players universally.

 

[Michael Reuben]

I know it's bizarre, but that was why I called this a transition period. Remember those early DVD players that didn't know what to do with a DTS bitstream? Thanks to that little hardware inconsistency, we had to endure years of menu warnings on DVDs about being careful that our equipment could handle the DTS signal lest we damage our ears or hardware or rend the fabric of the universe.

Now we have the same type of situation with hi-def, only times ten.

M.

 

[Southpaw]

Well I'll be damned, Michael.
I had to look for myself and it looks like you are 100% right. The PCM/bitstream options on the menu are for digital audio connections and not HDMI. And the whole time I thought I was able to control what audio I got over HDMI.
So I guess this begs the question...can you control it? The HDMI audio option is only on or off. I guess since it is on, it knows to only send PCM for whatever audio you have chosen from the particular disc's menu, right? For example, on a Fox title, it sends the core DTS via PCM and for a Disney title it sends the uncompressed track if you have it selected on the disc's menu. Let's say you have a Warner title like 'We are Marshall'. It has a TrueHD track. If I select that track, it decodes it automatically (since I have HDMI on in my player's settings) and PCM's it to my AVR. Kind of makes sense.
I know that doesn't make Nick happy but I've learned something today. I guess I should read the manual a little more next time.

 

[Michael Reuben]

This suggests (to me, at least) that with DTS lossless, instead of a PCM conversion, the player just sends core DTS through both the HDMI and the regular digital outputs. That would make sense, since any receiver with HDMI inputs could be expected to have standard DTS decoding.

I really hate to think of poor Nick reading all this. He's already suffering from a bad case of "too much information".

M.

 

[Southpaw]

Yup, you are right about DTS. My bad. It is sending core and my AVR confirms "DTS" on it when playing a Fox disc.

 

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

False. You proved it earlier when DTS MA discs didn't show DTS MA on your receiver.

Right....but that was ONLY because it is CLEARLY stated in the Panasonic manual, which I read countless times, that the ONLY audio format not supported by this player is the DTS HD MASTER AUDIO, and thus cannot be passed right now in any form from the player -- and thus, I understand why my receiver showed regular "DTS" extracted from the core of the DTS MA track....I understood why THAT had happened. According to the Panasonic's manual, all the other high resolution formats this machine supports -- that is, TrueHD, DTS-HD, DD+ -- can be passed, when available on a disc's soundtrack, bitstream to a receiver, which is why I do not understand why in the player's setup menu the only way to extract settings for PCM/Bitstream is by going under the "Digital Audio Output" (as discussed by Michael, Jason and others above, and which I will address) and yet under HDMI, there are no individual settings for PCM/Bitstream, etc.....am I to understand that the only way to pass these soundtracks via bitstream is to have the player hooked up via the optical or coax outputs? I thought HDMI can be passed via bitstream, too...

I think the "Lossless, big deal?" aspect of your post is due to being improperly setup.

I never said "Big Deal"....and if you are telling me the system is improperly set up and others are telling me, like Doug, that me and my installer got the settings right, who is correct here?

The only 2 players capable of bitstream are the Pioneer Elite and the Samsung BDP1400

Are you SURE these are the only two players that pass these soundtracks via Bitstream -- and which formats does it pass? Im sure not all the formats the Panasonic supports...

 

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

On Earth, I had assumed that "uncompressing" a codec would lead to the effect of the track "opening up" and breathing a bit as compared to the standard Dolby Digital/DTS mixes on SD DVD -- promising more powerful volume levels than found on DVD, which I thought, in some instances, needed work....but as was explained to me, I think my expectations for this format were skewed and can now be deemed false.

I may consider returning this player for one that sends the raw digital bitstreams of the HD audio tracks.

 

[Michael Reuben]

{Moderator hat on}
Nick, you need to shorten your signature. We don't allow more than 8 lines of text.
{Moderator hat off.}

M.

 

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

Thanks, Michael; I'll get to editing that as soon as possible.

 

[Shane Martin]

Right now I'm 100% right.

It will decode DD, DTS HD(not MA), Dolby True HD and PCM via analog or HDMI. Your receiver should see it as PCM.

Knowing installers, I'm pretty sure we(the forum) are correct and he is not. I lost track of the number of times i had to fix an installers mess. That doesn't meant they're all bad though.

 

[Mike Frezon]

And HERE'S an article on the subject from homemediaretailing.com.

It features a quote from the HTF's own Adam Gregorich!

 

[Jack Gilvey]

?

 

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

What I meant was I thought HDMI-supported signals/formats, like the new codecs from DTS and Dolby, can be transferred via a bitstream signal.

 

[Cees Alons]

Nick,

And it does.
But you need equipment, players in this case, who output those signals.


Cees

 

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

Cees,

You know what's bad about this situation is that I specifically bought into this format -- that is, Blu ray -- with the assumption that the Panasonic player spit out the new formats in bitstream to be decoded by a new amp, like Onkyo's TX-SR605...I know it's been laughed at before in these forums, but it pisses me off that I cannot see the "Dolby TrueHD" and "DTS Master Audio" indicators illuminate on the receiver's display, and I'll stick to that. To have the player internally decode the formats and pass the PCM stream to the receiver, I could have simply held onto my Onkyo TX-SR600 and used its multichannel inputs -- but I didn't WANT to do that; I wanted a receiver that decoded the new formats and put them out to the speakers, as standard DVD did via optical or coax...and now, I'm stuck with this purchase and this player, not doing what I thought or expected it to do. Of course, I didn't do enough homework on this, but I was also hideously misguided by uninformed salesmen in high and middle end retail shops selling home theater...and I mean I was shopping for this gear for months and getting no questions answered.

At any rate, is it absolutely certain that this machine will not output any bitstream signal? I mean, under "Digital Audio Output," there are settings for TrueHD and DTS HD to be able to put out bitstream --- but these settings are under DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT, not HDMI, so if there was the possibility of outputting bitstream of these hi res signals, why would they come out of coax or optical? Arent these HDMI only signals?

Does Panasonic have a firmware upgrade for this model to send the signals bitstream?