We are expecting too much from our new equipment. (1 Viewer)

[John Tompkins]

Buy the Sony if it floats your boat

Mike,

I had the sony strda5es in my house for a week. It was a real nice piece, but I soon discovered that I couldnt live without logic 7. If I were in the market for a non logic 7 processor , it would be in my rack.

 

[Saurav]

Could either of you provide a simple explanation of the difference between volume and gain?

Gain usually implies something is being amplified. With line level signals (i.e., before you go through a power amplifier and are dealing with amp/speaker interaction), perceived volume is directly related to voltage level. The amount of current decides how well you can drive long interconnects and things like that, but it's the voltage that determines volume. So, 'gain' - that would be with an active preamp, where the output voltage is actually higher than the input voltage. A passive resistor-based preamp cannot do that, because you can only reduce the voltage by using resistors. So, the maximum volume/voltage that a resistor preamp can produce is the same as the input volume/voltage (assuming no losses). On the other hand, an active preamp can produce an output voltage that's greater than the input voltage, hence the term 'gain'.

Hope that makes some kind of sense.

 

[Jed M]

I agree, the Sony is a fine piece. I used to own one as well.

 

[Angelo_Petralba]

 

[Larry B]

Saurav:

Hope that makes some kind of sense.

It does indeed. So if I understand correctly, in both cases (i.e., active and passive) volume is propotional to voltage. In the passive situation, the maximum voltage (and thus, volume) is that coming in from the source, and this can be lowered with resistors. In the active case, the output voltage can be increased beyond that of the input voltage by amplification (tubes or transistors, I assume).

But that gets me thinking: How was it that the "turtle" device that Ric P. raved about was able to increase the volume, since it was passive?

Larry

 

[Saurav]

But that gets me thinking: How was it that the "turtle" device that Ric P. raved about was able to increase the volume, since it was passive?

Good catch. That's something that a transformer can do. Power is a product of voltage and current, and depending on how your transformer is wound, you can increase voltage & decrease current, or decrease voltage and increase current. That turtle device was wound the first way. A transformer-based volume control would typically be wound the second way, because (a) you don't usually need the gain in a preamp stage, most modern (especially SS) amps can be driven to full power output by the voltage output of a typical CD player, and (b) wiring for voltage step-up (as opposed to step-down) messes up the impedance equations, which would lead to distorted sound more easily. If you had a very low voltage output source (like some phono stages), you could use step-up transformers, and sacrifice the drive capabilities because of the reduced current.

I don't know of any way to step-up voltage using resistors. It might be possible, I'm not sure. All resistor attenuators I've seen are just that - attenuators. They reduce the voltage, they don't increase it.

 

[Mike Knapp]

I did a quick comparison on the stereo performance of the DACS on the Outlaw to the Sony 9000es. I preferred the Outlaw but not by much. They do sound quite different though, this will be a matter of taste.

I will say that I prefer my audio rig and the Perpetual Technology DACS to either option.

Mike

 

[Larry B]

Saurav:
Thanks very much for the explanation. I suspected the turtle wasn't actually violating the 1st (or is it the second?) law of thermoD.
But doesn't this contradict our original description of a passive preamp in that the voltage/volume is being increased beyond that of the input?
Larry
Edit: Upon further consideration I realized that it doesn't contradict our definition, if passive preamps don't utilize this methodology.

 

[Saurav]

I was trying to be careful about saying 'resistor based passive preamps'. A transformer can produce voltage gain at the expense of current, or vice versa. If you want a strict 'definition' of a passive preamp, it would be a device using only passive components, so (a) it won't have a power supply, and (b) as a consequence, there would be no power gain, i.e., Vout * Iout (power output) must be

 

[Frank Zimkas]

Okay Kids, its time for bed!

 

[Marshall Sander]

I'm not trying to stir things up -- just figure them out. What are some of the features lacking on the 950 that prevent people from buying. This thread only revealed one so far -- that was the lack of individual memory settings for each input.

Please give me some others.

 

[Mike Knapp]

Yes, I would be very interested in that information as well. Also please tell which pre-pro or receiver has that feature and the price of it if you dont mind.

Thanks

Mike

 

[Russell _T]

Here is a list of features that I noticed are lacking that I think are useful and could have been included at this price point. Please note that I am not making any kind of judgment call here. At this price level they probably had to give something up. Just the facts:
Only one 5.1 or 7.1 input. This limits you to switching out your SACD/DVDA player.
Default button to reset speaker trims to original calibration.
Analog 5.1 or 7.1 user adjustable xover.
2nd sub out.
Input source selector should be individual buttons, not < >
control.
No phono stage.
Component video conversion? I'm not sure if this was finally included or not.
They could have put the xover defeat switch on the front.
Individual speaker delay.

 

[Mike Knapp]

Im not sure many people will have both SACD and DVD-A but I suppose some will. Soon all players will do both anyway so this will be a moot point.

Im not sure why you would be adjusting the volumes of the various speakers after they have been calibrated. This does seem to be very common as I am finding out. I am still in the dark as to why you would do this though.

Again I dont see the need for the crossover thing...someone fill me in please.

2nd sub out? Y-cable. Why the need for 2 sub outs? I really am interested in some reasoning here, I truly dont understand.

The remote does have individual source controls.

Phono stage. I understand this one, but in reality anyone that is into vinyl (I am) will use an outboard phono stage anyway. I admit it would be nice though.

Component conversion. Hmmm, I dont see this one either. No better resolution, just a format conversion. I must admit I dont get this one either.

The crossover defeat....again when would you use this?

The speaker delay would indeed be useful. That one I can really agree with. I happen to have a near perfect situation and this feature is not needed for my system but most people are not so fortunate so I agree on this point.

Please let me know the situations where the other features mentioned would be of use. I would like to know how others use their equipment.

Mike

 

[Jeffrey Forner]

Why is everyone making this business about the Outlaw 950 more complicated than it is?

Look, for many people including myself, the 950 is an affordable stepping stone into the world of separates. It has all of the connections we need, plus a whole host of features that should more than suit our needs. Not only that, but it will provide a sonic improvement for music and movies that's well worth the $900 we pay for it.

But for others, the 950 will not be enough. It won't have enough inputs, nor will it boast all the features these people come to expect from a pre-pro or receiver. In short, the 950 doesn't meet their needs. If you find yourself in this category, the solution is simple: DON'T BUY THE OUTLAW 950!!! For crying out loud, you have many other options available. You may have to pay more to get what you need, but that's the price you pay for needing so much. Deal with the fact that the Outlaw is not a one-size-fits-all pre-pro and move on. And while you're at it, please allow those of us who do buy one to enjoy it.

This rant was brought to you by...

 

[Steve K.H.]

I think we have to get back to topic...

...are we expecting too much from our equipment?

If you buy a $400 Kenwood THX 7.1, don't expect much.

If you purchase a top level receiver, expect it to have unbelieveable options at a premium price. Expect it to have firewire upgradeability. Expect the sound to be inferior (however nominally), to a comparable (feature for feature) separates package. Expect it to become obsolete and cost you funds in the long haul as opposed to the separates route.

If you go with separates...

Expect a long path of decision making. Expect to make short term sacrifices on the pre/pro end with a view to build the amplication to support your vision for the dream system (if it exists).

If you opt for an Outlaw 950, expect to consider the substantial savings against the competition. Expect that Outlaw 950 and "Entry Level Pre/Pro" are not really compatible terms. Expect pure processing that is not seen with entry level receivers. And, expect to trade, sell, throw this away in three years, and upgrade to Outlaw's next offering. Lastly, expect very few to have no opinion on the Outlaw.

If you opt for the king of kings, The Lex MC-12, expect envy from all. Expect sacrifices in other areas of your life, as the pocketbook will take a serious hit. Expect those close to you questioning your sanity. Expect to keep this puppy for a long time.

If you choose to opt for the Anthem AVM-20, expect persons to throw the Logic 7 curve at you. Expect turmoil in choosing whether it is more wise to go with a lesser costing throw away pre/pro, is it wiser to go with the King of Kings, or if the upgrade path of the Anthem will gradually converge with that of the Lex as Lucas builds on the theory "The Empire Strikes Back" as "Ultra Ultra Ultra (etc.) THX" becomes a reality.

Expect this... as more "must have" features are added, the cost increases exponentially versus the actual improvement in the listening experience.

Lastly, in your quest to locate perfection in HT and 2 channel processing, expect that there is no finite solution.

 

[Ricky T]

Mike,
Component video upconversion allows one simple connection to the TV, so no need to change the TV input when one switches between composite, s-video, and component video source components. The ability to save subwoofer levels by mode (ie, 2 channel, dts, dpl2, ac3, etc) can be useful for many of us who prefer different subwoofer settings for different software/sources.
Steve,
Why is a top receiver's processing automatically inferior? The Outlaw redbook dacs are no better than that of a sony es sacd player, or the stock msb dac. I'm sure Denon 4802/5800/5803, Onkyo 989 owners don't worry about whether or not their 2 dac performance can beat an msb link. Or what about entry level Theta and EAD prepros (basically last gen's)....these had great dacs, better than the stock msb.
My long round to integration HT and 2 channel sonics is near perfection: Lexicon DC1 ($1150 used) and Rogue Magnum 66 tube preamp with HT unity gain bypass ($1200 NIB)

 

[Kevin C Brown]

The 950 is also missing:
Distance/delay setting for the sub.
Individual delay settings for the rear center vs rear surrounds.
No THX Ultra2 (or original Ultra, or Select).
No "Cinema" re-eq processing.
True 5.1 analog bypass. (Putting on my flame suit. )
Nameable inputs (on the unit's display).
HDCD processing.
Upsampling.
But still, a great value for the price.

 

[Shane Martin]

Damn Steve that is one helluva post you made. I couldn't have said it any better.

To add to this I think we expect alot because of hype. The more hyped the product the more we are expecting from it. Some people are just going to be bummed about it no matter how good it is because of the hype and what it did to their expectations.

 

[Jeff Kohn]

Nameable inputs (on the unit's display).

This might be nice, but is certainly not a feature to judge a pre/pro on IMO.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it traditionally been the case that in the separates world, quality is emphasized over gee-whiz features? How many pre/pros at any price have every feature of the Denon 5803? Does this mean the 5803 is better than all of them? Pre/pro's tend to have a longer product cycle than receivers, and typically don't have every feature under the sun. If you care about features more than sound quality, buy this month's latest and greatest receiver. Just be prepared to have feature envy next month when another new receiver ships with THX Ultra 99.