We are expecting too much from our new equipment. (1 Viewer)

[Ricky T]

Mike,

You can't compare the outlaw dacs against your Sony dvp-9000es? Or the stock msb link dac (retail $299, $150 used on audiogon), which I believe you said beat the Sony 9000 for redbook playback.

 

[John Tompkins]

Every forum seems to go overboard on a certain product, with this board everybody knows it is the Outlaw 950. I'm sure its a very nice product but talk about something being overhyped..geez..

For HT purposes it is much easier for a less expensive product to sound almost as good as other products costing more money. It DOES come down to features, ease of use, bells and whistles etc when comparing ht processors.

Two channel music is a different story all together. This is where differences will be much more apparent. I'm still of the mind after much equipment rotating that a ht processor no matter how good it is will never beat a good two channel preamp setup and this includes the almighty 950.

Point being, is that the 950 is a fine choice (their are many others)depending on your priorities, but not an end all.

 

[John Tompkins]

I have a 122.00 dac(new) that I venture would beat the pants off of the 950 for two channel listening....ART DI/0

 

[Larry B]

John:

Two channel music is a different story all together. This is where differences will be much more apparent. I'm still of the mind after much equipment rotating that a ht processor no matter how good it is will never beat a good two channel preamp setup and this includes the almighty 950.

Right again!!

Larry

 

[Mike Knapp]

You can't compare the outlaw dacs against your Sony dvp-9000es?

I can do that but I have not yet.

I dont listen to music on my HT rig any more. I gave up trying to make compromises and just set up a separate audio rack.

Mike

 

[Jed M]

I think a lot of it boils down to it still not being available. Let me turn this around, I have never heard a 49tx or a certain dac, but somehow I know what sounds better than these two units? Does that logic make any sense?

 

[JonBouche]

Mike,

Great post! For those of us that cannot currently afford the Lexicon/Krell/Meridian type of offerings, the 950 gives us an option to move into separates while not having to compromise a lot in sound and break the bank (and maybe the marriage). Does it give me everything that I wish I could get-no. However, it gets me much closer that I am currently for a reasonable price.

Most of us have to make these kinds of decisions all the time, whether it be cars, homes, vacations, schools, boats, etc. There is only so much money to go around and you have to determine what gets you the closest to where you want to be for the least amount of money based on your priorities. How many times have you looked for a car only to find that in your price range, you have to give on some features? That Toyota Camry is really nice, but it's not as fast as the BMW 540, nor as quiet as the Mercedes ES320, but it is better than the current '89 Maxima. We do it all the time.

Well done, Mike!

 

[Ted Kim]

Another Beta Tester, Gene Lockaby, is a Lexicon MC-12 owner and he came right out and said how close the two units are in sound. Not a rumor, but a fact from a user of both units. Is the 950 an MC-12 at 1/10th the price? Of course not. The MC-12 has a lot of settings and options that the 950 doesn't have. But does the 950 perform amazingly close to an MC-12 for 1/10 the cost? Gene says so and I have no cause to doubt him.

.

Is it really a fact or rather an opinion? There may be others who disagree, a fact is not something that can be disputed - opinions can.

Also, while this is a minor point addressed above, tube preamps provide for more than volume control, they also provide voltage gain and input selection. If you want the absolute minimum, a passive preamp without an input selector (volume control) would seem to be in order. In fact, I intend to compare the Outlaw 950 with a passive preamp, i.e. a DACT attenuator, as soon as I get around to finishing building it. That should provide a useful gauge for really how good the Outlaw as a preamp in a 2 channel minimalist setup. Note -- I don't expect the Outlaw to "win" but I am keeping an open mind. After all, the DACT is designed for extreme transparency, and I don't expect the Outlaw to win on that front based on my listening experience. However, most people do not want that in a HT preamp, so Outlaw's design would appear to be appropriate for their target market, IMO.

 

[Larry B]

Ted:

Is it really a fact or rather an opinion?

Actually, I think it's neither. Rather, it's a subjective observation. (An opinion would be "I like it better;" a fact would be "It has higher current").

BTW, there are many who believe that high-quality preamps actually sound better than purely passive units. I don't know why this is so.

Larry

 

[AntonS]

It's amuzing how many people singing in tune that the 950 is such a great bargain for the money. Can there be any other opinions, please? I personally do not think that the 950 worth its $900. I'd pay about $450 for it, but that's about it. It just lacks too many simple features - necessary for both convenience and true sound reproduction - that can be found in even mid-grade receivers. Also, nobody have proven that the 950 would perform better than the latest generation of mid-grade receivers (latest DSPs, DACs, etc.) running as pre/pros. Providing that they cost less than the 950 and have built-in amps as free gifts (use them for second zone on your bedroom after the receiver is retired), the 950 deal does not look that sweet at all.

 

[Mike Knapp]

Im glad to see that this old man can still stir up a conversation on this board. Thanks to all of you for participating.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.

Mike

 

[Mike Knapp]

Anton,

You are welcome to come by and have a listen. You know how to get in touch with me.

Mike

 

[Ricky T]

Mike Knapp,

If the Outlaw sounds so good, then surely its redbook dacs should beat those in a Sony ES SACD player (9000es, 333es, 555es) or the stock msb link dac that you can buy for $150 used. The big receivers can: Denon 4802/5800/5803, Onkyo 989 (better than the 333es, which I then sold), B&K 307, etc. I look forward to your comparison.

 

[Mike Knapp]

Ricky,

Just curious why you think the DACS in a 900 dollar pre-amp would have to be better than those in a 1500 dollar trasnsport?

BTW, when comparing prices you should only use MSRP to be fair to everyone.

Mike

 

[Todd Hochard]

Im glad to see that this old man can still stir up a conversation on this board. Thanks to all of you for participating.

Nothing to add- just trying to stir the pot onto a 3rd page.
He's still got it!

 

[Ricky T]

Mike,

Don't compare full retail vs best online pricing. The sony's 1500 retail includes progressive scan dvd and sacd playback. And the msb is cheap. Look, I know you are a good judge of dac performance. To me, the first judge of musical/sonic ability is how a prepro/receiver performs are a 2 channel dac. And the top receivers do beat the sony es players and the stock msb for redbook. Can the Outlaw? If NOT, then why are so many people saying that the Outlaw is clearly sonically superior to any receiver? Get my point?

 

[Mike Knapp]

I have not even judged the Outlaw on 2 channel music, only home theater applications. For me, thats all it will be used for. But I will play with it some and report back.

BTW, if a product is only availabe via the internet, then its price is indeed the MSRP and needs to be compared to the MSRP of all the competition. The competition may not like that but thats how it is.

Mike

 

[John Tompkins]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Beta Tester, Gene Lockaby, is a Lexicon MC-12 owner and he came right out and said how close the two units are in sound. Not a rumor, but a fact from a user of both units. Is the 950 an MC-12 at 1/10th the price? Of course not. The MC-12 has a lot of settings and options that the 950 doesn't have. But does the 950 perform amazingly close to an MC-12 for 1/10 the cost? Gene says so and I have no cause to doubt him.


This is also what Gene Lockaby had to say




**Compared to the MC-12 ** - In my experience/opinion, no company does post processing of multi-channel audio like Lexicon, and this includes Outlaw, Dolby and Cirrus Logic. Lexicon simply has no equal, and in a word 'owns' this area. What they are able to do with Logic 7, both in two-channel and multi-channel, is nothing short of amazing. And BTW the new Logic 7 in the MC-12 is another step beyond the Logic 7 of the DC-2 and MC-1, which were already well ahead of all others.

That said, PL2-CES Music is an excellent post processing algorithm, likely to become an industry standard like ProLogic. Is it in the same league as Logic 7? Not really, but I would have reported that before I heard the 950, since the MC-12 includes several variants of PL2. All one has to do to compare is put on a CD and and toggle between Logic 7 and PL2 with the remote. PL2 is excellent. I'm glad I have it in the MC-12 - but it is no Logic 7.

The Outlaws, along with all the other manufacturers, are aware of the gap between available post processing software and Logic 7. And in the 950 they offer likely the best post processing available, until Lexicon decides to license Logic 7.

quote:

Another thing to keep in mind is that most people arent a/bing equipment at the same time/place. I thought it was funny when some people on this board swore up and down that the mc-1 was better sonically then the dc-2. Its funny because I had the mc-1 and traded down to the dc-2 because I didnt need the extra inputs, but let me tell ya, there absolutely NO sonic differences between the two. So take reviews/comparisions with a grain of salt. Sometimes people want a product to sound equal/better/poorer for their own reasons, theres where the placebo effect comes in to play.

 

[Ricky T]

Mike,
If someone is going to go online and buy the Outlaw for $900, why wouldn't they order the Sony dvp9000es from authorized dealers like Oade.com for ~ $1000? The same person would pay the full $1500 retail for the Sony? Huh?
John,
Funny considering that former Lexicon head of marketing Buzz Goddard has stated repeated that the audio innards of the MC1 and DC2 are exactly the same

 

[Mike Knapp]

If someone is going to go online and buy the Outlaw for $900, why wouldn't they order the Sony dvp9000es from authorized dealers like Oade.com for ~ $1000? The same person would pay the full $1500 retail for the Sony? Huh?

They would order from an online dealer (or get a discount from a B&M dealer), but that doesnt change the fact that the full retail price for both units is what it is. It doesnt matter what you can get it for, it matters what its MSRP is. If you want to look at it closely you will find that you are paying full retail for the on-line product so THAT is the price that must be compared to the full retail of the other product. This way you are comparing the full retail price of both units.

Mike