Titan submersible imploded near the Titanic wreckage (1 Viewer)

[JohnRice]

Bringing an outside entity up to speed on every innovation before it is put into real-world testing is anathema to rapid innovation.

I find this sentence quite revealing. The issue here isn't "Testing". When you sell seats to passengers, you are no longer testing. Plus, the whole statement of oversight being "anathema to rapid innovation" is also intriguing to me. And, to compare to Space-X is also interesting. The hurdles of going down to (as I understand) 380 atmospheres is infinitely more difficult than going into micro gravity and air pressure. Plus, as several engineers have stated, including James Cameron, the process of going back and forth, multiple times, to that amount of pressure is going to have a high likelihood of making the vessel unusable. Even before those comments came out, my feeling was that it was probably a somewhat "disposable" vessel, with a distinctly limited life span. The fact that what people like Cameron and others who understand the complexities of this predicted is exactly what seems to have happened kind of shoots down the argument they posted on their web site.

My gut feeling is, yeah, they signed the waiver, but that's not the end of the story. As has been pointed out, these are billionaires, and they have attorneys. My suspicion is that they will do everything they can to find evidence or proof of contradictory statements about the safety of the vessel. I suspect they will find something to make it at least challengeable. It'll probably take years, and whatever comes of it will probably be confidential.

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

I'm not certain as to the corporate structure of OceanGate, but I would not be surprised if they have limited assets. Suing them for damages may not yield much. Their major intellectual property would appear to be the use of carbon-fiber in the hull, which now may not be worth much.

 

[Desslar]

I'm not certain as to the corporate structure of OceanGate, but I would not be surprised if they have limited assets. Suing them for damages may not yield much. Their major intellectual property would appear to be the use of carbon-fiber in the hull, which now may not be worth much.

Yeah, it seems unlikely there's much money to be gained. But perhaps the suits would be helpful to send a message to the next wave of daredevil travel entrepreneurs.

 

[jayembee]

Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show

Warnings over the sub's safety were dismissed by OceanGate's CEO, emails seen by the BBC show.

www.bbc.com

I wonder if Rush had enough time to say, "Oops, my bad..."

 

[Nelson Au]

Not to pile on with Cameron and Ballard, but they were both interviewed again this morning on Good Morning America. It’s seems pretty certain the carbon fiber section of the vessel was the weak link in the design of the submersible. It’s not the right material when compressive forces are applied and released to it from the cycling of diving down under pressure and coming back up to sea level. Stockton Rush knew he was breaking the rules by using carbon fiber. He was a maverick and likes to think outside the box.



I forgot, it was interesting that the Navy has listening equipment that monitors the sea for enemy subs, and it was able to detect the sound of what is very likely the implosion on Sunday. But the Coast Guard kept it quiet as it wasn’t 100% certain that it was the Titan and I can understand they had to keep the search going on just in case and to be sure.

 

[jayembee]

I posted this earlier in the "Titantic (1997)" thread, but it's probably more appropriate here.

Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show

Warnings over the sub's safety were dismissed by OceanGate's CEO, emails seen by the BBC show.

www.bbc.com

I wonder if Rush had enough time to say, "Oops, my bad..."

I'm not certain as to the corporate structure of OceanGate, but I would not be surprised if they have limited assets. Suing them for damages may not yield much. Their major intellectual property would appear to be the use of carbon-fiber in the hull, which now may not be worth much.

I imagine that a lack of significant assets is precisely why OceanGate was offering $250K/person tickets for a dive to the Titanic.

 

[Tino]

Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show

Warnings over the sub's safety were dismissed by OceanGate's CEO, emails seen by the BBC show.

www.bbc.com

I wonder if Rush had enough time to say, "Oops, my bad..."

Oof. Too soon.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Carbon fiber sub??? Intriguing, but would/should seem scary for such deep sea exploration (and tourism?)... at least until the specific tech/design has been fully tested/tried/vetted/etc me thinks... and sounds like it was certainly not (beyond the relatively small samples/amounts of testing Rush and his own small company probably did).

_Man_

 

[jayembee]

Oof. Too soon.

Perhaps, but while I feel sorry for all of them (and their families), I feel less sorry for him. He is the reason the others are gone.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

There will no doubt be some major, wrongful death lawsuits (and probably new, much more strict regs in toll), especially if the company did not buy (nearly enough) insurance coverage for something like this... even if/though they probably made their passenger clients sign some kinda waivers -- sounds like those clients (and their families/estates/heirs) would likely have very deep pockets (and probably other capacities for influence) to afford the rate they apparently charged, so no doubt they can get much farther w/ such than the vast majority of us regular Joes...

_Man_

 

[Tino]

There will no doubt be some major, wrongful death lawsuits

Pretty sure the victims signed waivers preventing lawsuits.

 

[Alex...]

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Some stray thoughts:
1) It's a tragedy, full stop, and five lives were lost.
2) Culpability for the tragedy is not equal across all five lives, but since the CEO perished along with his submersible, his dream, and his passengers, there isn't really a meaningful recourse available, other than to determine a way ahead in terms of protocols.
3) The Titanic lies in international waters, so I'm not certain what organization can make rules (and enforce them) for submersibles to dive in the ocean. It's sort of a "buyer beware" situation, and in that, the adult passengers also possess some culpability for their loss. I can't speak for others; I certainly wouldn't risk my life on a vessel that could not prove it had been sufficiently tested to a degree that encompassed what I was about to do on it.
4) I suspect those waivers will be a mere speedbump if significant legal action is taken. Especially against a grieving mother and wife with extraordinarily deep pockets.
5) They found the wreckage exactly where everyone with significant diving experience knew they would. Right below their last known position. Within a few hours of showing up
6) The media clearly carried a lot of pointless and listless water for this scenario all week. Plenty of experts "knew" what had happened as early as Sunday night, but the 24 hours news cycle wanted their "oxygen remaining" and "heard banging" headlines to keep people coming back. They reported on the "search" as if it were anything other than acoustic listening for the first few days. Pretty ghoulish and unprofessional if you ask me.
7) I love Big Jim, but even with relative certainty, the search (as it were) should have urgently continued until proof was found. And as I understand it, the U.S. Navy did communicate what it knew and when to the on-site team. It's not their job to fact check CNN. I think the media blew it out of proportion, so he should take up his grievances with them.

 

[jayembee]

3) The Titanic lies in international waters, so I'm not certain what organization can make rules (and enforce them) for submersibles to dive in the ocean.

I would expect that whichever country the corporation responsible for the dives is established in has authority. Or whatever authority is responsible for the maintainence of maritime law.

It's sort of a "buyer beware" situation, and in that, the adult passengers also possess some culpability for their loss. I can't speak for others; I certainly wouldn't risk my life on a vessel that could not prove it had been sufficiently tested to a degree that encompassed what I was about to do on it.

They do. My greatest deal of sorrow goes to Suleman Dawood. I saw a brief bit on BBC World News yesterday with his mother, who said that he was worried about the whole thing, but he agreed to go with his father as a bonding experience.

On edit: It was his aunt, not his mother. My mistake.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

That's sadly why I wrote adult passengers. I did not know about his trepidation, and that news only increases my personal sadness.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

I would expect that whichever country the corporation responsible for the dives is established in has authority. Or whatever authority is responsible for the maintainence of maritime law.

Sounds likely... although that might not stop some less scrupulous entrepreneur/company from setting up shop in a (much) less strictly regulating country/territory in the future nonetheless.

I wonder what happens, for instance, if one were to set up shop on a fully private island (not belonging to any state/govt jurisdiction) one buys/owns not far off from a well-established, conventional country. Such islands definitely do exist afterall. Then, I suppose it's back to "buyer beware" or the like...

_Man_

 

[Edwin-S]

There is an article on the MS Edge News page where they talked to prior customers about their trip.

There is one where the guy being interviewed tells how the CEO of Oceangate said to him that he was able to get the Carbon Fibre used in the hull at a reduced rate because it's shelf life for use in aircraft manufacturing had expired.

Wow. Using Carbon Fibre unfit for aircraft in a hull that would be exposed to forces beyond what any aircraft would ever be exposed to. The hubris of the man was incredible.

 

[Nelson Au]

That’s a chilling story Edwin.

 

[Tom St Jones]

Don't see any lawsuits coming from this tragedy as anyone who goes on that submersible must sign a waiver stating that because of the risk factor that they acknowledge there is a chance of death.

That won't necessarily stop some upset family member or "concerned party" from filing one anyway

 

[Mark Booth]

To my shock and amazement, metal end pieces of the submersible were GLUED to the titanium/carbon fiber tube. Incredible!



Mark