SVS on Music vs. REL (1 Viewer)

[Frank_S]

Barry, that's about $7K worth of Studio Traps in that picture.

 

[Barry Barnes]

Barry, that's about $7K worth of Studio Traps in that picture.

I think that would take my Wife to the "next level" of coronary... It might even kill her... I better let that one go...

 

[Richard Greene]

ling:

I don't think bass traps are ugly, the wife does.

My DIY sub is a four foot long 18" diameter Sonotube

that looks like a big bass trap.

One big tube the wife will tolerate in our living room --

a room full of bass traps is exactly what I WOULD have

if I were single (if I had a room full of bass traps

today, I WOULD soon be a single man!)

I laid my sub on its side to experiment with a different position instead of having it standing in a room corner

and the wife commented that it looked better that way.

Fortunately the sub measured almost the same in the horizontal orientation with the driver now 4' from the corner (vs. vertical down-firing in the corner) so I have no justification to stand it up again.

I'll take bass quality over bass quantity any day.

 

[Barry Barnes]

I'll take bass quality over bass quantity any day.

I agree 100%. I wish my neighbor with the "boom-boom" car felt the same way...

 

[Bhagi Katbamna]

I'll take bass quality over bass quantity any day.

You say that as if they were mutually exclusive. That is not so.

 

[smcvick]

Ron said:

I'm curious. What sort of SVS did you hear, and how was it calibrated? Not sure where the "holy grail" comment came from but honestly we've never heard this sort of complaint from an SVS owner, or even someone (it happens) that returned one. I'm talking about thousands of users now. I'm sure you know that calibration (or lack of it) of any given sub will largely explain the poor qualities you describe. Suffice it to say you can take the finest piece of gear in the land and make it sound horrible with improper setup (not saying this was certainly the case, but I'd have to say it's likely given my own experience with our products).

Just wanted to chime in as a Dynaudio owner (Contour 1.8s) who also owns an SVS 20-39cs. I'm have two living rooms in my house, one of which contains a two channel music system, and my Dynaudios. The other contains my old Vandersteens and the SVS in a theater system. My SVS works great in my theater system, and sounds pretty good when listening to music. Would I run it with my Dynaudios? No.

I've done some testing with my Vandersteens, listening to music, and switching between sub/no sub. And on some tracks I've found some percussion elements that just don't sound as good when I add the SVS. Does the system go as low without the sub? Obviously not. And they still sound pretty good, so that the huge low frequency benefit I get when watching movies more than offsets any problems I might have with the sound on music. But my Dynaudios are much better speakers than the Vandersteens, and the SVS sub just isn't a good match.

That being said, my SVS sub is a steal for what I paid for it. In a home theater system, it does a phenomenal job of adding to the impact of a movie. And it DOES do a good job when listening to music. But compromises must be made in designing any product aimed at a particular price point, and I don't feel that it's the perfect sub for a truly high end music system.

 

[SanfordL]

Let me get this right... Flat response accross the sound spectrum being replicated / created is not the "perfect sub for a truly high end music system." Come again? "Reference 4: Good Lord. Listening to the song at full tilt, I could see things on the couch move. Every note was clear and defined. No mud here. The subs never felt like they were struggling to reproduce under 20 Hz. Call the doctor. These things rock."

You have to decide, what is more important, to have good sound, or to have the cache of having a system that 1. people have heard of, and 2. that you blew tons of money on. What are you striving for? Is this the same, "my Lamborghini is better than your NSX or Formula Ford" bravado that goes on in high end car circles? In my opinion, if I can hit 1.3 G's in a diminishing radius turn, get to 120 (or 150 for that matter) faster than you can, my car will dominate you on any city road track regardless of if you spent $200000.00 more for your ride than I did. I think that when folks say that SVS is inaccurate, they do not have the sub set-up right. It's not like this is a bandpass box made by some kid working for $7.50 / hr.

No, I didn't spend $30000.00 for the sub unlike some do for their REL's, (Stereophile just had a blurb about one from the last CES) but hey, a fool and his money are soon parted.

 

[Frank_S]

Sanford, you're not implying that all Rel sub owners are fools, are you?

 

[Ned]

barry-

what sort of speaker/sub setup do you have by the way?

 

[Barry Barnes]

barry-
what sort of speaker/sub setup do you have by the way?

I have an SVS 20-39 with Kefs right now... Why do you ask? Did you think I had a Rel? Just because I don't jump down someones throat for critiqueing the SVS sub doesn't mean I don't love mine.
They really aren't as musical as some subs I've had, but none of my other subs could even come close to their low bass output. It's fairly astonishing in that regard. I bought it for Home Theater and couldn't be happier with the performance. What little they lack in musicality I can live with by crossing everything over a little lower. 60 Hz works great for my setup. I did order one of the new Hsu VTF-3's to evaluate just to see how they stack up. My Wife likes the box look better and asked me to at least compare the two. I intend to compare them fairly and then send the Hsu back.

 

[Scott Oliver]

As a non-SVS owner, a happy owner of a Bag End Infrasub-18, and someone striving always for greater muscality, it is nice to finally see a thread on this forum with some informed, fairly objective opinions about SVS subs and how they stack up against other subs in categories other than sheer output.

Thanks guys.

It is ironic that Sanford above basically mentions that people own non-SVS subs for name recognition only to impress their friends. First off my friends don't recognize the names of any of my gear, so thus no value is ever placed on a name. In fact, I think I would get more oohs and ahhs if I had an all Sony or Bose system.

Secondly, his comment is ironic in that at least on this forum, you are very much in the minority if you don't own an SVS.

 

[John Sturge]

You have to decide, what is more important, to have good sound, or to have the cache of having a system that 1. people have heard of, and 2. that you blew tons of money on. What are you striving for? Is this the same, "my Lamborghini is better than your NSX or Formula Ford" bravado that goes on in high end car circles? In my opinion, if I can hit 1.3 G's in a diminishing radius turn, get to 120 (or 150 for that matter) faster than you can, my car will dominate you on any city road track regardless of if you spent $200000.00 more for your ride than I did. I think that when folks say that SVS is inaccurate, they do not have the sub set-up right. It's not like this is a bandpass box made by some kid working for $7.50 / hr.

Sigh...
You are obviously making absurd assumptions, and have no way to back them up whatsoever.
I'll say that for now.
On another note, I hold the opinion that SVS's are better for home theater then for music. Don't ask "Is it Properly Calibrated?" because It is calibrated, and asking again and again isn't going to change my answer
One complaint about Rel though: Way Overpriced

 

[Ned]

Ok Barnes, guess there isn't any conspiracy to uncover
I certainly don't claim SVS is the best for music, but it's pretty good for music if well setup.

 

[Barry Barnes]

I certainly don't claim SVS is the best for music, but it's pretty good for music if well setup.

Agreed. And they absolutely kick ass for Home Theater!

 

[Joe-T]

This is an interesting and balanced discussion. About the musicality of SVS subs, I agree 100% with TV. It's the ultra low octaves that "slow" down the bass. As much as I love my SVSs, I sometimes turn them off with music because I don't "feel" for the really low bass notes that can pressurize a room (even at low volumes). Still, I think SVSs are good for music and superb for HT (price aside).

Scott,

How do you like your Bag End Infrasub-18? Bag End makes great subs, but I've mostly listened to their pro audio subs. I have not heard the Infra-18.

 

[rodneyH]

I don't own a REL, I was considering getting one and looking at the Titan II, and decided to try the SVS trial. I was getting rid of my M&K (typically thought of as a "musical" sub (whatever that means)), I will say, the SVS kills my M&K, and I kept it (I had full intentions of getting a REL or Titan).

 

[ling_w]

How can the ultra low octaves slow down the bass when it is there in the original music? I don't think anyone would go to a concert hall performance and say the bass is slow just because the FR in the venue goes down to 0hz.

If a reproduction system's bass seem slower than a what we usually hear in a live performance, then we could justify it as being slow. Otherwise, it is just perception.

 

[SanfordL]

Jesus, sorry, didn't mean to flame out there John. No idea what my assumption was, but I've had my Cheerios, and am in a better mood now. I think the long and the short was, if you have everything set up well, the sub, ANY SUB if well built, should disappear into your soundstage. John, you might consider getting in your car and running out to Barrington, Bag End is right there.
Bag End Loudspeakers
22272 North Pepper Road Unit D
Barrington, Illinois 60010 USA
Voice 847 382 4550
Fax 847 382 4551
http://www.bagend.com
Scott, I've heard of Bag End, they are right in my back-yard. How do you like the Infrasub-18? The main reason I didn't go with them was what I'd read about a complete lack of low end. Do you find that to be the case?

 

[SVS-Ron]

All who care,

SVS's are as natural sounding and accurate on music as any subwoofer on the market, and properly calibrated have been proven to be so by literally thousands of user comments to this effect (not to mention reams of objective measurements).

It's not at all surprising that the perception of hearing any music (or movie sound track for that matter) with true bottom octave reproduction done right isn't always positive. If you have never heard the 20-40Hz bass nuances (that includes harmonics, distortion and other revealing oddities that may or may not have been intended or even heard by the recording studio) done with SPL's loud enough to be audible, then indeed the "clarity", "punch" and "speed" of upper bass can and probably will be changed too. At least, in its perception to the user. The fact most "musical" subs simply don't go into this depth, despite the fact there may be bass notes or just recording anomalies they just mask, means some of us have spent years listening to bass "just so".

Change that equation and there is every reason to believe that, initially anyway, the change in sound might not be considered "good". We frequently get some real "golden ears" (I'm using that term as a good thing here!) that are quite taken aback by "how much bass they were missing" (literally) before. Sometimes they do NOT like it. 9 of 10 times, after a bit of adjustment (re-tune the ears if you like) and experimentation with subwoofer levels you couldn't pry the SVS out of their cold dead fingers any sooner than you could their Pronto, their ISF calibrated display (everyone liked the results of that from day one right? NOT), a darkened room or letterboxed/anamorphic displays either. That other few % of critical listeners? It's rare, but we've gotten a couple back because the customer couldn't get over the difference (we're talking of thousands of subs sold here).

This thread included, I'm also struck by how little discussion or apparent recognition there is to the need (this is my experience talking, not some hard and fast rule) to create separate bass calibration levels for music (be it CD, LP etc) modes such as "Stereo" and 5.1/6.1 modes of DPL/DD and DTS. Fortunately just about any decent DD/DTS surround sound receiver allows memory settings for EACH listening mode. So I can (as you can probably) set my subwoofers MUCH lower for CD/Stereo listening than I do for DPL/DD mode on DVD. I religiously use Video Essentials and my SPL meter to set the latter and then promptly add several dBs since I like explosions and "trap doors to Zurg's fortress" to really move my room.

The same is NOT true of a Paul Simon CD, Weezer, Ben Folds Five, or Velvet Crush etc. When I set up music modes I put in the disks I know VERY well and set the subwoofer level until the blend it totally transparent and seamless. Impact is just right, and I couldn't tell if the sub was on at all unless I turn it off and the rich sound field seems to fold in half.

In some cases I feel folks are looking for a single magic calibration that gives them the depth and impact for movies and the natural sound for music they want too. This is probably possible with subs that have a far more constrained operational bandwidth; but it's not only difficult, but nearly always unnecessary with today's processors.

Set the sub level "just right" for the level of play and the type of music you like, and crank it "hot" for LFE and deep bass of DVD if you want and you'll get the best of both worlds.

There's not a doubt in my mind that placement and level setting (calibration) accounts for most if not all of the instances where "upper bass" seems some how altered by dialing in a very powerful sub like an SVS (and the same can be said for other deep performing subs too). This is NOT to say the very experienced users above (you know who you are!) are wrong, just that tastes and perception are very very dicey things when the debate extends to the decay of a bass guitar string, or the clarity of a "Blue Man Group" intro are dissected in detail.

In the end little of this matters, if a REL or any brand sub is preferred for the bulk of the sort of program material you like, and it's in your budget, then THAT is the sub for you. There is nothing in the least un-musical about an SVS, but as Tom has said elsewhere that does NOT mean another brand won't be preferred.

There isn't one kind of excellent wine worth drinking. There are some that are so over priced they are silly; there are ones you can't seem to find in your town; and there are ones that you like but your spouse doesn't.

Now and again there are folks that prefer another excellent sub to SVS for certain applications. To that we can only say, "vive la difference" (someone, help, he tried to speak French! ;^) Meanwhile there are those thousands of (generally quiet and reserved) customers that have gotten their settings to their liking and frequently chew us out for not saying up front SVS is a music sub FIRST and a HT subwoofer SECOND. I'm not sure why this is important to them, but honestly hardly a day goes by that we don't get a note like this.

The fact is, we don't care if a bass note is carved from a Miles Davis jam session, or a synth bass spike attached to a cartoon character going up in smoke. High or low or in between the SVS better track it perfectly... or else.

The bottom line? Don't think that for a second that adding depths of bass response is going to be perfect for everyone, all the time, compared to all subs. Just like you shouldn't think SVS is less "musical" because it does low, loud and complex bass at a relatively affordable price.

I've told this story before, and I think it's illustrative of just how powerful personal bias and perception can be:

I had a "suite-mate" in college (way back in the Jurassic period of the 1980's) with a VERY nice stereo. This is back when I was happy to have a boom box mind you I'd already built a few speakers at this point in my life. Full Marantz system, very nice turntable (CD was just coming in, "And the year WAS???") and some of the nicest AR speakers I'd ever heard.

His preferred setting was FULL treble, and NO bass. That's right treble maxxed, bass as far left as the knob would go. Sounded, how shall we say...like shit. To me.

So I went on a campaign to change his mind. I set an LP up he liked and just started with both bass and treble at the center detents. I think this demo lasted like 10 seconds. He hated it, and I was aghast. SURELY he could hear my superior settings and "calibration"?? Hardly.

I went commando. Every day for about a week I'd go in and set the levels of bass and treble to the center detent and every day I'd discover he'd set it back. Now and again I would NOT do this, just to avoid the certainty and pattern that he would need to change his stereo after a long day of pre-med classes. I thought "conditioning" would, over time, allow his pin-head brain cells to perceive a more rational view of the world, or at least one that included sound meters and sheet music. I figured if cockroaches can develop resistence to DDT, then surely I could win this one.

Last I heard ZZ Top still sounded like Alvin and the Chipmunks and I moved out to escape the din.

Don't get me wrong, someone that prefers another sub, REL, Audiovox, WHATEVER is not automatically some nutcase! It does demonstrate, I hope, that the power of human perception is something we do not try hard to mess with at SVS. We know our subs are among the world's best in terms of "musicality" (a vague term if ever there was one) but we don't think for a second that we're going to convince every user in the world that bass properly done should sound like "this". It sounds like our customers "like", or they send it back. So far, this crazy concept seems to work. As they say..."one billion Chinese can't be wrong".

We're still shy, but closing in on, one billion subs sold. All with what we think is about as perfect a reproduction of "music bass" as we think exists in the industry.

Ron

 

[Walt N]

There has been some very good points in this thread with my own emphasis on those by Tom, Ron, Richard Greene (a guy who was hanging out with Nousaine when a lot important sub basics were covered.) It's true, the room makes or breaks the bass and the deeper the bass plays the more important the room control. I've noticed that changing the tuning of my own SVS subs changes the decay properties quite a bit hence the "speed" improves, but if you really want "musical" REL sounding bass one can plug the ports completely. Seriously. However "musical" is a taste issue for sure. Nothing I've heard in my room sounds more natural with music than a stock tuned 16-46, however my music includes some pipe organ works and my background includes many years as a touring/studio rock drummer so I have my own ideas of what bass should sound like. I've never liked tightly tuned drums nor overly "tight" rubbery sounding (to me) subwoofers. I like the thick enveloping sound that only subs capable of producing the lowest fundamentals and harmonics can deliver. To me that's musical. Your mileage may vary, hell it probably does!