So is Dual Disc making a splash or sinking? (1 Viewer)

[Lee Scoggins]

I'm not sure where you are getting your math John. You cannot compare DSD and PCm directly in this fashion. Also, the noise shaping that occurs in the HF is not audible according to every technical account I have read. These are old arguments we have debated before and not on point for this thread.

In any event, this discussion was on the relative merits of word length versus sampling and you have shown nothing to refute my comments on sampling being more important.

You cannot answer every question in audio with science. Much of sound (as any recording engineer with experience will tell you) matters at the practical implementation level. It is better to judge the effect of sampling rate, for instance, in a controlled studio where you can listen to a live event in 48k and 96k (for instance) and note the improvement in realism. It is vast.

As for DXD, there are many reasons why Philips may be pushing it. There may be financial reasons, royalty reasons, marketing reasons, a desire to get all labels on board for the launch...who knows? But you cannnot say that they feel DSD is flawed in any matter. I have met somee of their team and believe me they are quite proud of DSD.

Based on the 192K recordings I have listened to, I'm sure 352k would sound great and probably be at the DSD level of transparency if done right. If it meant more hirez titles then I would be all for it, particularly at this sampling rate. Doesn't this mean Philips finds real value in the sampling rate as well? Yes, Of course they do.

There has also been talk of doubling DSD's frequency to 5.8Mhz but I suspect we may only see a solution once the BluRay/HD-DVD war shakes out and one is established. It seems to me that launching a new music format is difficult and expensive in an age where the clever and robust iPod and iTunes store has brought real convenience value to the younger shopper.

 

[John Wes]

John, I'd like to thank you for your (imho) unbiased observations and this little bit of info...

Very interesting indeed!

 

[Rachael B]

I wonder what the advantage of DXD really is, from Philips' viewpoint? Maybe something like it's really easy easy to insert the latest draconian copyguards that Dr. eGore has developed in his secret labratory???

 

[Robert A. Willis Jr.]

This was sent to me from Music Direct and posted in a different thread.

 

[Paul.S]

Thx for above post, RAW. Generally speaking, that lack of any true hi rez content makes Sony's Duals less attractive to me (unless there's some desireable vid content).

Can anyone with with the Audioslave Dual comment on its quality/content?

I've just seen a few Duals (i.e., Diana Krall, NIN) on Amazon after entering "DualDisc" in the "Popular Music" search field. Any one found any grouped listings?

-p

 

[Kris Deering]

The AudioSlave DualDisc that was released in the test market has the normal CD side and the DVD side has all the same stuff as the cheap DVD Audioslave DVD that is out in stores now. It has the 3 videos and a few live performances. Plus a few interviews with the band. No high rez, no surround sound.

 

[Rachael B]

"...the normal CD side..." Kris, I don't think so...

 

[John Kotches]

Rachael asks:


It's actually quite simple.

There's no need for intermediate formats (like WideDSD) for calculations / signal processing. Instead, you have a native capture that can be delivered as Hi-res PCM (up to 192K is the limit presently for consumer media) or DSD without any of the noise related issues that are present for DSD in the masters.

Cheers,

 

[John Kotches]

Lee says:


If DSD is the be-all end-all as you routinely depict it, why is it that Philips is even considering the move? The fact that they're moving away from DSD says far more about their true feelings about the viability of DSD than your words.

Royalties? Philips stands to make more from DSD than they would from yet another PCM implementation. PCM is public domain, DSD involves royalty payments to Sony/Philips.

I'm quite proud of some of my professional accomplishments in the past with regards to one of the software products I was an architect on as well. Time moves on, things are learned and these advancements make this earlier work merely a mile marker on the road of the products progress and evolution.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

That's not an issue anymore for SACD anyway so it must be something else.

I'm sure a new PCM format could lead to hardware and software royaltees also for Philips.

I never said, by the way, SACD was the "be all end all". I have just expressed my enthusiasm for the format because what I have heard it capable of when done right.

We may wind up with 95% digitally delivered music and 5% audiophile or specialty formats with the lack of a new music format launch with hidef DVD. The majors have blown a major opportunity from a business strategy standpoint and are shooting themselves in the foot with the new format war.

I think they should have figured out a away (put a hirez soundtrack on the Bluray/HDDVD?) to get one standard adopted for:

1. Computer Data
2. Movies
3. Music

But nevertheeless SACD is doing well and still is supported strongly by audiophile labels. The one thing I see is that the next format will have to overcome natural market skepticism from the prior format wars. DualDisc could have been an answer but few releases are true hirez so that has miffed the 2 channel audiophile community which I believe is important for adoption.

 

[Robert A. Willis Jr.]

Well its May. Where is the product?

 

[Will_B]

In every record store you could imagine.

 

[Tim Hoover]

At last...a plain English, no-BS translation of Sony's DD jargon. Now if they would only explain the difference between "enhanced sound" and the "superior sound" phrase used on a few other releases.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Can you show any kind of white paper or even a public claim where Sony or anybody else claims to internally use 1-bit math with no "DSD Wide" (PCM Narrow) or any other intermediate conversions? I'm talking multitrack mixing, signal processing, bass management, and so on.

As far as how is DualDisc doing, if it's as big of a flop as SACD I expect the Nine Inch Nails DualDisc to tank completely, since the plain CD is available for 2 bucks less.

No SACD or DVD-A would have captured more than a tiny fraction of sales if released day-and-date and sold next to the CD. But DualDisc typically captures a third of the total sales...I wouldn't be surprised if it captures half of the sales with the new NIN disc.

 

[Robert A. Willis Jr.]

Most of the "new" releases are rehashes of previously released DVD-A's or don't have hi rez tracks. Not very impressive at this time especially since offerings from other hi rez formats have virtually stopped.

 

[Justin Lane]

Not impressive from the standpoint of the early adopters of SA-CD and DVD-A. However, considering most of the music buying public never experienced those formats, it is impressive from a mainstream acceptance standpoint since all these releases are considered new to the them (the mainstream).

J

 

[Kris Deering]

Don't know where you're getting this. Warner has released 1 DD that was previously released.

Universal has released none that were previously available on DVD-A. And now their current releases were never even on SACD.

The majority of Sony's Dualdisc were never on SACD.

Silverline is the only one that is doing more re-releases.

And the only hi rez format that has been a no show in the mainstream market lately is SACD. The Elton John discs were the last mainstream releases. DVD-A on the other hand released almost the entire REM library, 2 Mark Knopler releases, Seal's Greatest Hits, and Beck's new album. The entire Door's catalog is being released later this year on DVD-A as well.

The only real mainstream releases I've seen announced for SACD are imports. Pink Floyd being the only real exception. Sony and Universal, who were the biggest mainstream backers, seem to have abandoned the format all together.

DualDisc on the other hand is getting more and more releases and plenty of store shelf appearances. I see them all the time at just about any store that sells music. That is far more then I can say for either DVD-A or SACD.

 

[John Kotches]

Kris,

A point of correction...

The Knopfler and Beck releases are on SA-CD in Europe. There is more to the marketplace than the US

Best,

 

[Kris Deering]

I know, I was just talking about the US market. Most people, other then audiophiles, don't import discs from overseas.

 

[Robert A. Willis Jr.]

Kris,

How many new Hi-Rez domestic titles (all formats available at Acoustic Sound or Music Direct) have been available this year? If you discount classical releases, not very many. This may change but so far it is mostly vaporware.

I am not knocking any of the formats because when I find something I like, I buy it and I have only bought four new Hi-Rez non classical titles this year. I am not even limiting the discussion to my tastes. What are the hard counts? Also, I don't like the tendency of 24/48 multichannel tracks but can live with it if I get 24/96 2 ch.

So to the uninformed public the hype may be convincing, but to folks that have been long time Hi-Rez fans it shouldn't be. We have been through it with DVD-A. At least the SACD format has more titles than you can count on two hands . I'll believe the hype about DualDisc when I see significantly more product.