Pioneer DV-563A Review (2 Viewers)

[DaleBesh]

Just a reminder, with the 563 if you do not change the speakers to LARGE, the Pioneer changes the bass management based on the source (SACD, DVD-Audio, etc.).
The solution is to leave the 563 settings at large and use an external BM such as the ICBM, or receiver or pre/pro with BM capability for all sources played through the 563.

 

[David_Fr]

Let me go into greater detail to avoid confusion. I realize The DCM12A's are not considered good monitors by most audiophiles, but with the homemade crossovers, I think the mechanical side of the speaker is pretty impressive. It is enough anyway to deicipher that the music sounds more three dimensional using the SACD and DVD-A capability of the 563A.

The 525 has what is called direct 6 channel in. This allows me to hook up the 563A to the HK, but it takes the HK out of the processing loop, and I cannot use the BM (which I consider to be quite excellent). 6 CH direct basically turns the reciever into an amplifier, which is not bad because the amp is pretty good on this unit, and the 563 does a pretty good job of processing EXCEPT for the fact when all the speakers are set to large and subwoofer off, I am pretty sure I am just loosing a ton of low frequency information.

Having four 12 inch drivers housed in large cabinets and with the ability to at least reach some where down to the 30Hz range, I just do not see a need for a dedicated sub to create the low frequency effects. At half volume the system already moves enough air to flex the drop ceiling. I would like to use an ICBM. Do they do recombination into the mains and what is the best bang for the buck? Sorry for being long winded.

 

[Gary DeRoy]

First, when listening to DVD-V (Norah Jones, for example), CDs or MP3s, use the digital outputs on the 563 and digital inputs on your HK 525. You will then be using the bass management in your 525. Your 525 will redirect LFE to your main speakers if the SW is not present. Besides, the DACs in your 525 are a little better than the one in the 563.

When you're listening to DVD-A or SACD, you have to use the analog 5.1 outputs on the 563, so you have to use the BM in the 563. In your case, set up the 563 so all the speakers are Large and the SW is OFF. Unlike your HK 525, the 563 will not redirect LFE material to your other speakers, so you simply won't get it. Fortunately, there isn't a lot of new material in the LFE channel on DVD-A, and even less on SACD. It'll depend on the particular disc you're listening to. Only you can determine if you're satisfied with the sound, but unless you listen to a lot of classical music, you'll probably get by. Even though I have a SW, I listened to hi-res music without it for a long time (until I got an ICBM) and was happy with it. Steely Dan, Queen and Willie Nelson (on DVD-A), and Norah Jones (on SACD) all sounded good.
Eventually, you'll want to add a SW. There are quite a few in the $1500 to $2000 price range that sound good. The problem is, it's a lot of money. If you want something that rivals that sound, but for $250 to $400 (depending on the amp) and don't mind building it yourself, the Adire Audio Shiva is a good choice with top notch reviews.
With a SW connected, you'd set the 563 so all speakers are Large, and the SW is ON. The "guess" I got from Pioneer is that this disables BM on the 563 (I'm waiting to hear from a Pioneer engineer on this, but it makes sense). I'll try a bit of experimenting tonight and see if I can qualify this more. If it does disable BM, the DSD signal from SACD will go directly to analog, not to LPCM then analog (not that I think it really makes a difference).
Although your speakers are full range, you may want to add an ICBM at a later date. On some music, there is a benefit to sending material below 40Hz to the SW.

From the looks of your system and what you're trying to do, keeping the price reasonable, it looks like you're on the right track.

 

[DaleBesh]

The "guess" I got from Pioneer is that this disables BM on the 563 (I'm waiting to hear from a Pioneer engineer on this, but it makes sense).

Many of us assume this is the case for most if not all players, please do let us know if you get info to the contrary.
But what I hear, I suspect it is. My pre/pro does the crossover at 80 hz and if it was raised to 100 hz it would be obvious to me having 'messed' with an ICBM in conjunction with a receiver before. So I have no reason to believe any BM is in effect from the 563 in the LARGE mode as it was not in my prior Panasonic player.

 

[Gary DeRoy]

I should clarify this a bit more. With the SW ON and all speakers set to Large, the crossovers are not active and all signals pass through their channels, and only their channels. Nothing is redirected. I'm sure of this up to this point.
The next question is, does this constitute BM = OFF in the 563, or is the BM still active and just passing info straight through? I know it sounds like it shouldn't matter (and to me it actually doesn't), but it affects DSD conversion on SACDs. In the 563's setup menu [Initial Settings / Speakers / Audio Output Mode =], you can select 2.0 channel or 5.1 channel. Selecting 5.1 channel sets BM = ON and selecting 2.0 channel sets BM = OFF. DSD conversion on the 563 works like this:
BM ON: DSD to LPCM to Analog.
BM OFF: DSD to Analog directly.

The final question is, then, does setting all speakers to Large and the SW ON disable BM enough to send the DSD signal directly to Analog?

I know it's already been covered here before, that a couple very high end SACD players also convert DSD to LPCM before going to analog, and that this shouldn't make any difference in sound quality. But, it still may be important to some people (mostly those who don't own a 563, I'd guess) and it's just one of those things that would be nice to know, anyway.

 

[David_Fr]

Thank you for the in depth reply Gary. I agree with what you said. I realize that DVD-V is digital. (That is what the sound tracks to my movies are coded in) and it sounds ok, but after hearing the depth of DVD-A and SACD, I am sold on that format. I would like to audition a powered sub in my system, but I am still not sold on the bass manageent I have seen in SACD DVD-A players to this point. I have reservations about investing in a sub and then driving it at 200Hz. To me that is like buying a new vette and running it down the quarter mile twenty time before you even drive it to work. I realize the 563A is a budget player, but I plan on having a SACD and DVD-A player for some time to come so I guess I do not mind spending some money on getting th Bass management correct, and enjoying my music. I guess now I just need to find a good deal on an ICBM. From my reading it sounds as if Outlaw audio is the only real option for a guy in my price range.

 

[Gary DeRoy]

David, you're in a better position than most for bass management. If you set all your speakers to Large with a SW, you don't have to worry about the 200Hz crossover in DVD-A. You'll get full range to all speakers and LFE to the SW. Although a BM system would be nice, technically you shouldn't need it.
There are a few BM systems out there, but most of them are expensive, professional models. The Outlaw Audio ICBM is aimed at home use. It's only available on their web site and it'll cost $270 including shipping. It's probably over priced considering what you can get in electronics these days (receivers and DVD players for under $250). It doesn't have a remote or digital display, but at least it's of quality build, it's operation is very flexable (it has a lot of features) and you can't get anything else for less. It does its job very well.

 

[Rick_Brown]

I have read through all 15 pages of this remarkable thread, and it is a testament to the perserverance, careful listening and testing of members of this Forum.

What I don't think has been spelled out re: Bass Management is this:

If I listen in multi-channel DVD-A/SACD via the 5.1 analog cables and I leave the settings at small for mains, center and surrounds and subwoofer = Yes, what deficiencies will be evident in the sound? Less bass, I assume, but is this dependent on the frequency response of my sub and mains? My sub is only a 10" and extends fairly high up the freq curve and my mains extend fairly far down. Will I still have problems?

 

[GregorySB]

David_Fr,

Have you tried using the HK 525's 6 Channel DVD-Audio input setting instead of 6 channel direct? This lets you use the 525's triple crossover bass management settings for the 7.1 analog input jacks. The drawback is that the analog signal is digitized first, leading to an extra a/d and d/a conversion before you hear the sound. I'm curious as to how this would sound, however. It might save you the cost of an ICBM if it doesn't deteriorate the sound much.

If you set speakers to Large in the 563a and subwoofer on, the 563a will not do any bass management and the analog outputs should carry all frequencies. Then in the 525, you would set all speakers to large and subwoofer to off. The 525 should then redirect any bass that it sees on the analog LFE input to your main speakers.

If you get a chance to try this, please let us know how it sounds.

 

[Brian L]

If I listen in multi-channel DVD-A/SACD via the 5.1 analog cables and I leave the settings at small for mains, center and surrounds and subwoofer = Yes, what deficiencies will be evident in the sound? Less bass, I assume, but is this dependent on the frequency response of my sub and mains? My sub is only a 10" and extends fairly high up the freq curve and my mains extend fairly far down. Will I still have problems?

I think the only potential problem will be the elevated crossover for DVD-A (200 hz). That will surely allow the the sub to be localised.

No, whether or not that is an issue for you will depend on a lot of variables; speaker and sub location, program content, how smoothly your sub and mains are integrated at 200 hz....the list goes on.

There is also the question of whether or not you sub plays that high. If you can defeat the internal crossover, it may. But if you can't, you are left to set it to its maximum point. Hopefully that is 200 hz or higher.

BGL

 

[Gary DeRoy]

?

My sub is only a 10" and extends fairly high up the freq curve and my mains extend fairly far down.

Perhaps we could answer this better, Rick, if you could tell us a bit more about your speakers or your system in general.

Does your SW have a built-in amp and if so, is there a switch to defeat the crossover? If not, what's the highest frequency setting for it?

You said your main speakers go down quite low. Are they full range? Do you know what they're rated at, ie: 40hz to 20,000Hz? Or, do you at least know the size of their drivers

 

[Tom McA]

OK, I'm being lazy. Over the past few months, I've read this thread start to finish, and based on the advice here, I had my unit tweaked nicely. Now I have a problem whose answer is in here somewhere, and I'm hoping someone knows it off the top of their head so I don't have to chew through it all again.

Unfortunately, my 563A had a problem that sent it back to the shop. (Nasty pop at the head, and occasionally between tracks, when listening to DVD-Audio discs through the multichannel analog outputs.) One new circuit board later, I have it back, and all my settings are wiped.

I have a Sony 4ES receiver and M&K 850 System speakers & sub. What's the consensus for speaker size setting, number of dB sub boost / other channels cut? Or, based on a tip in a different thread, am I better off doing the sub level adjustment in the receiver? Or is that a bad idea because the sub level only needs adjustment in DVD-Audio-land but not SACD-land? Aagh! Help!

 

[Brian L]

My experience with the 45A was that the sub level needed to by boosted for ALL formats (DVD-A, SACD, DD, DTS). And the boost is normally 10 dB.

If thats not true with the 563, that will be the first uni player I know of that had differences in format.

Having said that, does your Sony allow different trims for the 5.1 versus sources it decodes internally? If so, I would leave the levels fixed in the player, and tweak the trims in the receiver. If not, you need to do it in the player. I would go +6 on the sub channel, and -4 on the mains.

One more comment. Some newer receivers and pre/pros do not seem to need the boost when connected to the 5.1 inputs. The reasons for that are unclear. My old Marantz SR-96 did. My new NAD 762 does not. Also, the Outlaw 950 does not appear to need it.

At the end of the day, only a test disc and an SPL meter will be able to answer the question conclusively with your gear.

BGL

 

[Tom McA]

Thanks, Brian -

That advice sounds familiar. I think the 6dB boost / 4dB cut is roughly what I did last time.

Dunno if I can trim the sub level for just the 5.1 analog input in the receiver. I guess it's RTFM time.

 

[David_Fr]

Gregory I tried what you suggested when I first connected the 563A and at first I thought it sounded pretty good. It was comparable to the output I get when watching DVDs. Then my curiosity got the best of me and I thought I would try taking the receiver out of the processing loop. Thats when I really discovered the depth SACD can add to music (of course this is my opinion). I have not really tried tweaking to much with the receiver doing the digital bass management, but my ears tell me it is probably best to tweak the signal as little as possible once, it has left the player. I think the 525 has good clean processing and power and DVDs and digital sources sound great, but I just cannot put my finger on what happens to SACD and DVD-A when it is process by the receiver. Sorry for my long response.

 

[David_Fr]

I have another question. Sorry I did not post in my last response. It was stated that with all speakers set to large and the subwoofer on no bass management would take place on the 563. I was under the impression that if 5.1 multichannel was on that BM was on also, or did I miss something in this post that disputs the fact?

Also if it is the case that no BM takes place with 5.1 on maybe a sub is in order. My concern is that it might be a mistake to try an add another subwoofer to operate with the four I already have. After going through the hassle of building custom crossovers for my current speakers, I have found how hard it is to get four of the same drivers in sync much less adding one that is not of the same brand or possibly diameter (if that will affect anything). Also is it possible to get a powered sub that actually sounds half way decent for under 250 (the price of the ICBM).

 

[Rick_Brown]

Perhaps we could answer this better, Rick, if you could tell us a bit more about your speakers or your system in general.

My sub is rated 20 - 200 hz, but no +/- db available. It has a crossover with the highest cutoff point being 95 hz. My front speakers are rated down to 42 hz at -3db.

So, if I set to mains = small, sub = yes and set the crossover on the sub to 95 hz, I guess I will have a hole in the bass response over 100 hz when listening to DVD-A/SACD, right?

 

[Gary DeRoy]

So, if I set to mains = small, sub = yes and set the crossover on the sub to 95 hz, I guess I will have a hole in the bass response over 100 hz when listening to DVD-A/SACD, right?

95 Hz is relatively low for a max. setting. Most let you go to 120, 160, 180 or even 200 Hz. Since this is the case for you, though, you will lose the material between 95 Hz and 200 Hz when your speakers are set to small. If all your other speakers are the same, 42 Hz to 20,000 Hz, you'd be better off setting all your speakers to Large. It may not be ideal, but it'll still sound better than missing that frequency range and there's not much real music below 40Hz.
Don't worry about the -3db at 42Hz. Most rooms do more to screw up a speaker's frequency response than that anyway.

 

[Gary DeRoy]

It was stated that with all speakers set to large and the subwoofer on no bass management would take place on the 563.

David,
It is correct that 5.1 mode sets BM to ON and 2.0 mode sets it to OFF. Since 2.0 means 2 main speakers and 0 LFE, this part is pretty easy to understand. The next step is understanding what BM does. It's a way of redirecting low frequencies, at a fixed or variable crossover point, away from smaller speakers and toward larger speakers that can handle these frequencies better. In most cases this means a SW, but it can also mean redirecting them to larger front speakers. If ALL your speakers are set to Large (not some speakers, but ALL of them), then each speaker gets the full range of music (20 to 20,000Hz) and no bass is being redirected. In this case, BM is (effectively and by definition) OFF.
In a perfect world, we would all have room for 5 large, full range speakers and 500 watts per channel to drive them, and nobody would have even heard of BM

I'm not sure if the ICBM without a SW will do what you want it to. I don't know that it will redirect LFE to the Front speakers, even when using the Recombine switch. I should have and answer for this today, and also if there's a work-around for it if it doesn't. (a work-around like patching the ICBM's LFE output to it's unused surround/rear input, and redirecting it to the front speakers that way.) I'll let you know what I find out.

 

[Gary DeRoy]

David,
You're in luck!
With all channels on the ICBM set to "bypass" and the recombine switch set ON, LFE is sent to the 2 front speakers. It's not covered in the manual, but on my 2nd attempt to contact Outlaw Audio (their 1st response didn't answer the question) they confirmed it with a detailed answer.
It looks like the ICBM is just the thing you need. Let us know how you like it