"ON TRIAL: LEE HARVEY OSWALD" -- A Personal Review

Discussion in 'TV on DVD and Blu-ray' started by David Von Pein, Oct 28, 2008.

  1. David Von Pein

    David Von Pein Producer

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    In his 11/27/63 bedside interview with Martin Agronsky, Governor Connally uses the words "the President had slumped" when verbally re-creating the tragedy. But in every interview and official testimony session thereafter, Connally always maintained that he never saw JFK at the critical time in question.

    Therefore, if Connally never actually saw JFK at all during the moments when each man was hit by a bullet, how can Governor Connally possibly know for certain whether Kennedy was hit by a separate bullet or not?

    My own view on the bedside "slumped" remark is that John Connally got that information from his wife, Nellie, who always maintained that she saw the President "slump". In fact, she uses the words "he just sort of slumped down" in her Warren Commission testimony to describe JFK's movements in the car just after the President was shot.

    You'll also note in the bedside interview that John Connally doesn't actually say "I saw the President slump". He says "the President had slumped". IMO, he got that information from his wife.

    You might also be interested to know that Governor Connally admitted in 1967 that the Single-Bullet Theory was "possible" (Connally's own quote):

    John Connally Is On Camera In 1967 Saying The SBT Is "Possible"


    Lots more here:
    THE ASSASSINATION OF JOHN F. KENNEDY: A LONE-GUNMAN VIEWPOINT
     
  2. Neil Brock

    Neil Brock Cinematographer

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    And of course we can count on the "physical evidence" 100% because the police did such a good job of securing the crime scene area.


    Even President Johnson never believed the Warren Report. It was done to placate the American public and ease fears. At the time it was done, pre-Vietnam, pre-Watergate, people were likely to believe everything their government told them.

    As for the Grassy Knoll, what about the witnesses who were in front of the knoll and who heard the shots coming from behind them, some of whom said they felt as if they were over their heads?

    You bring up wiping evidence at Parkland but I didn't mention Parkland. Again, why was the limo, where the murder took place, immediately wiped clean and all evidence destroyed? Or are you saying that never happened and that's also a theory of conspiracy nuts?

    And the magic bullet theory? It was conveniently arrived much later after the bullet fragment was found on the curb. Originally they said it was 3 shots which all hit. But then once it was discovered, then all had to be changed a one near pristine bullet then had to account for 7 wounds.

    What about the doctor at Parkland who said at a press conference that the President was shot in the front of the head? He's completely wrong of course because it doesn't follow the party line.

    How does your Oswald theory explain Rose Cheramie?

    Rose Cheramie (Cherami) was found unconsciousness by the side of the road at Eunice, Louisiana, on 20th November, 1963. Lieutenant Francis Frugé of the Louisiana State Police took her to the state hospital. On the journey Cheramie said that she had been thrown out of a car by two gangsters who worked for Jack Ruby. She claimed that the men were involved in a plot to kill John F. Kennedy. Cheramie added that Kennedy would be killed in Dallas within a few days. Later she told the same story to doctors and nurses who treated her. As she appeared to be under the influence of drugs her story was ignored.


    Was she psychic? Did she travel back in time from the future? Just a coincidence? Love to hear how you and the other Warren Commission apologists explain this one.
     
  3. TravisR

    TravisR Studio Mogul

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    No doubt this will fall on deaf ears but since neither of you is going to convince the other, how about just agreeing to disagree rather than the going tit for tat?
     
  4. Jack P

    Jack P Producer

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    LBJ hardly spent days and nights poring through 26 volumes of testimony. His belief on conspiracy though, had more to do with whether Fidel Castro was behind Oswald, not whether there were multiple gunmen (plus, that conspiracy belief on the part of LBJ undermines the idea of government covering up the evidence in the moments following the assassination)

    You also keep mentioning witnesses who *thought* they heard shots from behind but leave out the fact that an equal number thought they came from the Depository. And when the physical evidence shows the latter, that merely tells us that the witnesses who thought Depository were correct and the others made honest mistakes. You do not, as a matter of common sense say that if one witness said the hold-up man wore a black hat and the other witness said the hold-up man wore a white hat, then ergo there must have been two hold-up men even though the evidence says just one!

    As for Rose Cheramie, it's already been explained.

    Impeaching Clinton, Part Two: An examination of the witnesses from Clinton, Louisiana, allegedly linking Lee Harvey Oswald ro Jim Garrison suspects David Ferrie and Clay Shaw: John F. Kennedy assassination: Jim Garrison investigation: JFK: Rose Chera

    That's my final comment. Dave can summon a more detailed defense at will. [​IMG]
     
  5. Jeff Gatie

    Jeff Gatie Lead Actor

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    Both the doctor and the police officer who claimed to have heard Cherami's "prediction" had ample opportunity to relay this information to the FBI, but neither Dr. Weiss nor Officer Fruge had any recollection of Cherami predicting the assassination until they were deposed in 1979, 16 years after the fact. Matter of fact, when their statements were taken by the NODAO in 1967, neither could recall Charami discussing the assassination prior to the event. Garrison's staff also interviewed the staff of the East State Louisiana Hospital in which Cherami was held, and not one soul could recall her "prediction" first-hand.
     
  6. Neil Brock

    Neil Brock Cinematographer

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    One other point I'd like to get a response to. When the press spoke to Oswald he said that he was a patsy. Now considering the entire situation, let me ask you when or where have you ever heard any murder suspect, let alone one who was presumed to have committed the crime of the century, say something like that? I've never heard it. Maybe say I'm innocent, I didn't do it, etc. Just not what you would expect to hear. Anyway, as a poster above said, no minds will be changed. You can continue along with the very small minority of Warren Report believers while the vast majority of us feels otherwise. At least you have the apologists in the mainstream media on your side.
     
  7. Jeff Gatie

    Jeff Gatie Lead Actor

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    So you are basing your defense of Oswald on his "patsy" statement? The insane rantings of a raving lunatic with a lust for the spotlight now trumps mountains of physical and circumstantial evidence?


    Uhhhhh . . . ok. [​IMG]

    Oh and if you knew anything, I mean anything about me, you'd never claim the mainstream media is on my side, "apologists" or not. [​IMG]
     
  8. Neil Brock

    Neil Brock Cinematographer

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    Evidence like what? The rifle with no fingerprints on it? Unless you count the "palm print" which miraculously showed up after Oswald was killed.

    There are many other questions surrounding the latent palm print. These questions have been discussed in such highly acclaimed works as Sylvia Meagher's Accessories After the Fact Vintage Books Edition, New York: Vintage Books, 1992, reprint, pp. 120-127) and Henry Hurt's Reasonable Doubt (New York: Holt, Rinehart, and Winston, 1985, pp. 106-109). For example, newsmen with sources inside the Dallas Police Department widely reported that as of the time the rifle was handed over to the FBI on Friday night, Oswald's prints had not been found on the weapon, and that this was "a big disappointment" to the authorities. Yet, Lt. Day told the WC that on Friday night, well before he handed over the rifle, he recognized the palm print as probably belonging to Oswald, and that he told Captain Fritz and Chief Curry about this. However, when Fritz was asked the next day if Oswald's prints had been found on the rifle, he replied, "No, Sir." The first time any Dallas law official said anything about the palm print was early Monday morning, several hours after Oswald had died and at right around the same time the FBI team was fingerprinting Oswald's body at the morgue. It bears remembering, too, that nobody outside the Dallas Police Department--and, according to the official record, nobody but Lt. Day--saw the palm print until November 29, seven days after it was supposedly lifted and four days after its alleged discovery was belatedly announced. (The odd, inexplicable delay in announcing the print's alleged discovery is all the more suspicious in light of how the Dallas police and the DA's office rushed to tell the press about any and all evidence, tentative or otherwise, that tied, or appeared to tie, Oswald to the shooting. It turned out that a number of the initial DPD statements and claims were erroneous. Given the police's rush to hurriedly release even speculative and/or unconfirmed information damaging to Oswald, it is hard to believe they would not have immediately announced the "probable" or "possible" finding of Oswald's palm print on the barrel of the alleged murder weapon if in fact they had made such a discovery.)
     
  9. Jeff Gatie

    Jeff Gatie Lead Actor

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    If you noticed, there is no "tit for tat". A conspracy story is mentioned, David shoots it down, then they forget about that one and go on to the next. It's more like all tit, no tat.

    So perhaps your first statement about "agreeing to disagree" is the wisest of them all.
     
  10. MattPeriolat

    MattPeriolat Supporting Actor

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    Well, speaking for myself, I've learned a few things about the Kennedy assassination:

    1.) It's an event that sparks passions on both sides, regardless of which point of view you take.

    2.) It's a touchstone event for a culture, like Pearl Harbor was in '41 and 9/11 would be for my generation.

    But I think the most important thing I've learned is simply this: no amount of arguing, puzzling or guessing changes one simple fact - it's not going to bring Kennedy back, one way or the other. Maybe that's part of the reason for the passion, to fill the void of the loss.

    Now, that being said, I am happy about the material that has been released, but man, one of these days, I'd really love one of the networks or maybe all of the Big 3 to put out multi-disc sets of their coverage from 11/22, 11/24 and 11/25. True, there is some from the date of the assassination, but very little outside of highlights of the ceremonies at the Capitol, the funeral Mass at St. Matt's or the burial at Arlington, to say nothing of Oswald's demise in Dallas.

    Sorry, history major in me. Always craving more.
     
  11. David Von Pein

    David Von Pein Producer

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    I just love being called a "Warren Commission apologist". It truly makes my day, and it always provides a chuckle too. Almost as much as the oft-bandied-about term "Warrenatti". Conspiracy-happy folks love that one too. [​IMG]

    As for Rose Cherami, I haven't done a great deal of research on her story, but another JFK researcher has--Dave Reitzes:
    Rose Cherami: Oliver Stone's JFK: The JFK 100

    ==================================================

    "ON TRIAL: LEE HARVEY OSWALD" VIDEO DOWNLOAD LINKS

    www.Twitter.com/DavidVonPein

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  12. David Von Pein

    David Von Pein Producer

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  13. MattPeriolat

    MattPeriolat Supporting Actor

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    Good lord...

    Thank goodness it's my bedtime or I'd be up all night with this! Very impressive collection of material, sir.
     
  14. DivyaMani

    DivyaMani Auditioning

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    The above quote came from the lips of Mrs. Ruth
    [​IMG]
     
  15. Jack P

    Jack P Producer

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    Ummm....you left out the matter of the *partial* prints that were on the rifle but which in 1963 could not be conclusively matched to Oswald's based on incompleteness. But in 1993, Vincent Scalice, the fingerprint expert for the HSCA examined different photos taken of the rifle with the partial prints on before they were lifted and by using adjusting contrasts on different pictures was able to come up with a perfect conclusive match with Oswald's fingerprints on the rifle.

    The idea of the "planted" palm print also does not pass muster. Especially in light of the fingerprint re-examination by Vincent Scalice.
     
  16. Neil Brock

    Neil Brock Cinematographer

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    Why were there no prints found or mentioned as being found until days later, after Oswald was killed? The police were touting all of their findings but no mention of any prints? Mmmm. Interesting. Because we all know that police would never doctor evidence. Especially in a small town like Dallas (which is what it was in 1963).

    BTW, still haven't gotten a repsonse as to why the shots were said to have been 3 that hit and the story didn't change until the curbside bullet was found. So, all 3 bullets struck until a miss was found and then magically it became perfectly logical that only 2 struck and did all of the damage?

    I guess this doctor must not know what a bullet is, since he states that it is still in Gov. Connally's leg:

    YouTube - Dr. Shaw- "bullet still in leg"?!?! 11/22/63

    Maybe it got there by itself.
     
  17. Jack P

    Jack P Producer

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    Neil, I hate to be the bearer of bad news for you, but these partials on the rifle of which I speak, are prints *ON* the rifle and what Scalice studied were the original photos taken by the Dallas PD when they found the rifle. There is no fakery involved, and then would you kindly explain why they wouldn't be thorough enough to put prints of Oswald on that couldn't be matched for another 30 years until technology made it possible to do so?

    You're unfortunately offering a nice demonstration of how common sense goes out the window when it comes to how conspiracy think has to work.
     
  18. Jeff Gatie

    Jeff Gatie Lead Actor

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    The Dallas PD borrowed Rose Cherami's time machine and traveled forward to scope out the new technology? [​IMG]

    Of course that would mean the Dallas PD were behind it, with the Cubans, and the drug dealers, and the mob, and the anti-Cubans, and the CIA, and the Secret Service, and 3/4's of the witnesses, and half the population of New Orleans, and LBJ, and Marina Oswald, and the de Mohrenschildt's, and Major General Edwin Walker, and the communists, and the anti-communists, and the Marines, and the Illuminati, and the Masons, and the KKK, and last but not least, Jack Ruby, who died of stomach cancer induced by secret Russian chemicals delivered by the Texas State Prison System's cafeteria workers (who were also in on the conspiracy - their hairnets doubled as secret spy transmitters).

    It's a good thing they can all keep a secret, huh?
     
  19. Jeff Gatie

    Jeff Gatie Lead Actor

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    Because you go where the evidence leads you. At first, there was no evidence of the first shot missing. Until that was found, they went where the evidence leads them. Same as after it was found. I don't see how that effects the SBT (which has been proven possible and probable many, many times) one bit. Matter of fact, it supports the SBT, because we know definitely that only 2 shots hit.

    Now, can you explain to me why you haven't answered the many bogus claims you have put forth in this thread, such as the false Rose Chemari story, the "unduplicated" shots that were actually duplicated, the "passed" parafin test that was actually failed, the "nonexistent" prints that were found to be Oswald's 30 years later, and many others? Or are you just going to let those claims wither, jumping from one claim to another as each one is debunked, always staying one step ahead of the truth?
     
  20. Neil Brock

    Neil Brock Cinematographer

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    Finally you get it! [​IMG]

    I don't claim to know what happened and I certainly don't go by anything Jim Garrison said. I'm not as sure as you that it was Oswald. All I'm saying is that I don't know but what happened, how it was handled before and after, Oswald's murder, sure leaves plenty of room for doubt. I've read and seen numerous accounts on both sides of the issue and all I'm saying is that I have a reasonable doubt. It all seems too pat - lone nut, killed two days later by a patriotic wannabe who just happened to be mob connected. Because we all know what big patriots the stip-club owner mobsters are. Just too convenient.
     

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