*** Official THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

[Don Solosan]

At least one reviewer has said that Greengrass should hereafter "direct all action movies." If this, in fact, happened, I think someone would have to shoot me. I have to admit that the Spaz-o-Cam was not as bad as the second Bourne movie, but I left both with the feeling that I hadn't really seen them.

The negatives: a ton o' plot but no story. And an inadequate ending (I always assumed that he willingly joined the CIA before he lost his memory).

The positives: a ton o' action (which seems to be what most people want from the Bourne "franchise."

 

[Brent M]

That's a reaction I would have if someone inserted the names Brett Ratner or Steven Sommers in that sentence, certainly not Greengrass.

 

[rich_d]

I like the film. It's neat when three action films in a row (around one character) can be made that are strong. The Die Hard films come to mind as well as the first three Bond films. But it's not a long list of films that have done that.

My favorite is still the first. It had heart as well as a terrific story plus not dependent on a bunch of high tech gadgets. This film is fine, no big complaints. I just wish they kept things real and felt they should have resisted the urge to go 24. Where was Jack Bauer and Chloe? Could there have been a few more video monitors?

The assassin that was there at a moments notice in London now appears at a moments notice in NYC. Pretty lame.

But the scene in Morocco? Terrific.

 

[Brett_M]

Technically, he was not in the CIA. He was recruited from the armed forces to become a Treadstone contract agent.

 

[Tim Glover]

Robert,
Took in my 2nd viewing last night and I enjoyed it MUCH more. Some of my issues remain but they aren't as pronounced etc...However the Niki element still holds flat for me. I think I'm just strangely loyal or whatever to Bourne's Marie that anyone else is a distant second.

...well, someone new might have worked but the Niki connection feels a bit forced? No biggie.

The other element that I think marred my initial feelings were due in part to the film's title. Ultimatum in some ways doesn't fit the screenplay but neither did Supremacy either. The other thing that I did some thinking on was part of my downer mood the other night might have been the revelation of Bourne's path from David Webb to Jason Bourne. Seems like Chuck & Lou saw this coming....I didn't. I never once thought it would come down to his choice in this. Kind of thought he was a 'victim' of sorts thus one of the strong ties to liking him is figuring out 'who did this to him'. So that bit of a shock, while effective caught me off guard.

The train station or airport terminal scene with the reporter is absolute genius. Really. Wasn't too long or overplayed. Intense!!! The Desh chase did go a bit long for me truthfully but the actual fight in the flat was good.

What makes the Bourne series so effective is not so much the chase/action moments. Although they are usually first rate. (one quick note-Bourne really knows how to walk away from car accidents here ). The scene where Landy is hurrying to fax the documents while Bourne is looking for the Dr. is first rate. That's the kind of suspense that other less effective thrillers can't pull off.

It's a great trilogy. I have bumped up my score to 8.5/10.

Really look forward to owning this on HD DVD later this fall.

 

[John Doran]

saw it a second time last night, and loved it just as much as the first time...

the sequence with desh involves the best fight choreography i have ever seen in any film, ever. just unbelievable.

when this hits DVD, i'm gonna lose many, many hours of my life watching all three installments back-to-back-to-back, over and over and over again.

james bond and jack bauer can kiss my ass (once they're done kissing bourne's).

 

[John Doran]

a matter of perspective, i suppose - i found the payoff to be there in spades. i mean, he has been guided through three movies by the belief that he has been basically despoiled of his very self and moral compass by a predatory government agent/agency, a self he was lucky enough to have had returned to him in the his moment of doubt on mombosi's yacht and his subsequent near-death experience.

so, discovering that who we was before his conditioning was not altogether dissimilar from the person he was after must be...deeply difficult, shall we say. he must now fashion himself more or less out of whole cloth. the entire series is kind of like Regarding Henry in that way, or perhaps closer to the Iron Giant ("I am not a gun"; "You are who you choose to be. Choose").

of course, how much of an impact that makes on you may depend on your particular preferences: the theme of being fashioned and destined for evil, but choosing to reject that origin for the sake of good, is one of my mostest favoritest themes, so it always strikes me right to the quick whenever i find it (cf also the Hellboy comics...just awesome for this).

anyway, i'm just saying.

 

[John Doran]

i assume that he did that to ensure that landy wouldn't be taken into custody so that he could get the blackbriar materials into her hands (they would do the most good in the possession of someone with access to a senate oversight committee).

 

[rich_d]

It was good. Just remember the father of all hand-to-hand combat scenes was James Bond and Red Grant on the Orient Express in From Russia with Love.

That fight scene still holds up and it was filmed over 40+ years ago.

 

[Josh.C]

Saw this last night and really enjoyed it.

The thing I absolutely love about the Bourne films is that you get exactly what you want and pay for. I have never been let down by this series, and thats something I can't say for many trilogies. All three are worth owning and can be easily handle multiple viewings.

If I was going to disect the film into plus's and minus's, I would have to say that the only slight drawbacks were:

-The Nikki connection was odd and left you hanging. She hinted to something in one scene that made you think there was a former relationship with Bourne. My own speculations had me wondering if the reason he signed up to be Jason Bourne is because of a broken heart/nothing else to live for type of thing inflicted by Nikki? Either way the film never expounded on this and it would be nice to know.
- Through no fault of the film, but great fault in the theater we saw BU in, the car chase and crash scenes were almost unbearable. The volume was cranked WAY too high, and the "highs" were turned up WAY to much. I much prefer a deep resounding bass, and treble to be a compliment.

Other than that it was a great movie experience and I look forward to owning the DVD.

A couple of quick hits on my favorite parts

- Desh fight sequence was UNBELIEVABLE. Brutal hand to hand combat at it's finest
- One sequence where Bourne takes a guys gun and just crushes him in the face with it. Well timed and provides one of those "OUCH!" moments
- Last sequence with Bourne in the water
- Faxing the Blackbrier documents...."You might want to find a good lawyer"
- Bourne w/ the jounalist sequence... Loved the way they had him stand by the guy in the hood to throw them off the trail.

This was Bourne Greatness at its finest.

9 of 10

 

[Ben Osborne]

Regarding Bourne enlisting in Treadstone voluntarily, some in this thread have said that this shouldn't have been a surprise to the viewer. But what about Bourne's memory being erased? That seems like an odd thing someone would volunteer for.

Also, in Bourne's flashbacks in "The Bourne Supremacy", Conklin (Chris Cooper's character) controls Bourne like a puppet his first assassination mission. That gave me the impression that Bourne was an pawn being manipulated againt his will by the CIA.

As someone pointed out, that Bourne enlisted voluntary does make him morally culpable for his assassinations. He placed his trust in the CIA out of his desire to serve the government. That doesn't make him completely responsible for everything he did when under the control of the CIA, however he does share in the blame. "The Bourne Ultimatum" illustrates this by having Bourne execute the hooded prisoner. Bourne doesn't know who the prisoner is or what he did. By executing him Bourne subjugated his will to the will of Treadstone.

It is to Bourne's credit that eventually reasserts his own will by refusing to kill for the CIA. However that doesn't make up for the things he did while voluntarily being under their control.

 

[Don Solosan]

I didn't get the impression that they wiped his mind. I thought it happened at the failed assassination attempt.

 

[Ben Osborne]

You're right, that is how he lost his memory. Thanks for the correction.

Still, Treadstone brainwashed him and broke him down to the point where he was basically a robot. The Bourne we see assassinate the Russian politician and his wife in the second movie is a man completely controlled by his superiors. That is why it could come as a surprise to some that he would have signed up for that voluntarily. I could see someone signing up to be an elite agent who would get superior training, but not voluntarily being held under water with a bag over one's head, deprived of sleep, and brainwashed.

The revelation in The Bourne Ultimatum works for me because the protagonist up to that point seemed like a unwilling victim who found himself in a bad situation that he had no part in creating.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Historical brainwashing has always involved sleep deprivation and mental torture. Hell, special forces training does the same thing, and the applicants KNOW that. A rested man has his defenses up. An exhausted man does not.

A Bourne who just buys whatever he is told is no use. A Bourne with no moral compunction is a liability. You need moral certainty. You find a true believer, and break him down into trusting you. He then acts with all of the conviction and dedication of a man of service, but none of the questioning attitude. Note that this is NOT what the military does, but it's a very extreme variation of it.

Bourne volunteering for the program is a moral act. Bourne shooting the man without any of his questions answered (which he did after two plus days of being awake [and torture]) is not...but he still did it. He committed. That was the decision point, and he made it.

He should have realized he was abdicating his ability to morally judge a situation. He was placing his trust in a group that already showed they could NOT trust him (by telling him WHY he had to kill the man). It was a mistake, a moral failing, and clearly a betrayal of his principles. The film doesn't throw all that on the screen, but allows Damon's face to carry it. It worked well enough for me.

I think it's even sadder for him to realize that he was given a choice, the choice wasn't murky, and he made a terrible decision. His actions since first regretting it (BI) have been much more moral. He's found himself before he found his past.

Good stuff,
Chuck

 

[Adam Sanchez]

I caught the movie opening night and had forgotten to come here till this morning. We loved the movie. But I admit the part above did have me confused. I wasn't sure if it was a flashback or what, but when it happened I was like... that was from the end of part 2.

Would someone help me out and explain how this scene fell into the 3rd movie? Did the movie jump back and fourth?

 

[Stephen_L]

The chronology of much of the third film occurs during a gap in the second film. As I recall Bourne apologizes to the daughter for slaying her parents and is seen walking away in a Russian apartment block near the close of the second film. Then the bulk of the third film occurs. The scene where Landy takes Bournes call occurs in the final third of the third film. The Landy scene at the close of the second film is sorta like a 'coming attractions' clip for the next film. It was very cleverly done.

 

[Brent M]

It was indeed cleverly done and I feel like a fool for not picking up on it until a friend pointed it out to me later when we were discussing the film.

 

[Dave Hahn]

Well, maybe I need a second viewing as well because as of now I'm thinking this was one Bourne too many.

I've read a lot of Ludlum's work, as well as all of Tom Clancey's. The first two movies portrayed an extremely believable field operations officer, albeit one with exceptional abilities, but believable none the less. In the special features section of the first film is an interview with a former CIA operative who says much the same; that unlike other "spy films" The Bourne Idendity showed a believable character making do with what was at hand to get the job done. No gadgets, no suped-up sports cars, just everyday real. I found no need for any suspension-of-disbelief for the first two films, now we have Ultimatum and I found that I was taken out of the picture many times.

The first act, with Bourne and the reporter was excellent, I just wish there had been more of a payoff. All that work for nothing. Maybe it should have been Nikki instead of the reporter. Not a major complaint, just a thought.

Compared to Chris Cooper's Alexander Conklin and Brian Cox's Ward Abbott, I found David Strathairn's character, Noah Vosen rather one-dimensional. Perhaps this was due, in part, to Strathairn using sneers and snarls instead of acting. Still, Noah Vosen reminded me of more of a "Bond Villian" then of a character belonging in a Bourne film.

I also found Ultimatum much more political than the previous films. It seemed as if the Blackbriar Program with all its moral deficiencies was aimed directly at the current administration's policies. Was there really need for that?

The "Nikki Thing" was also distracting, I wish they had either delved deeper into that plot line or left it out completely.

The single biggest problem I had with Ultimatum was that throughout the second and third acts, I wasn't sure if I was watching Jason Bourne or The Terminator. Getting up from the car bomb, getting up from the jump from the roof through the window below, getting up or just ignoring the various car crashes; all just a bit superhuman for me. Sure, Jason Bourne has had uber-training and is in supreme physical condition, but he's still human. To paraphrase Star Trek's Scotty, "You can't ignore the laws of physics!"

The physical damage received from standing next to an explosion from the amount of C-4 shown, or dropping fifteen feet and through a glass window, or diving through other various glass windows, or from the kinetic energy of any of the automobile collisions; all would have been extreme, emergency-room type injuries. Yes, this is an action movie, and yes, the hero is expected to do such things; it's just that the first two Bourne pretty much stayed away from this kind of thing. They had believable action scenes and seemed much more real.

I also think that tying Ultimatum directly to the time-line of Identity may have been a mistake, taking into account the fact that Matt Damon is obviously older and heavier then he was in Identity.

I'll post my thoughts after a second viewing.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Well I guess I got here late and this might be covered on page 2 or 3, but in case not I have to say that while his arc isn't finished here, it is MUCH farther than it was even by the end of Identity. He now remembers before the program, he knows or suspects the details behind his training and just how sinister it was. It's gone past just "I was one of the best killers in the world" to "I was made via experimental methods".


I LOVED that they ended 3 with the opening of 1 (him floating in the water, shot in the back) and it left me suspecting that he was actually dead since it would appear to bookend things. That made the payoff of him living (and that Moby kicking in) all the sweeter.

My wife insisted we put in the first 2 after watching this, she's really bought into it and loved it maybe more than I did. Anyway, of note to me was that at the end of Identity Cox tells Congress that Treadstone is done and then goes on to being his presentation on another program he's looking to fund....Blackbriar. Awesome.


Now in terms of a 4th I think he'll have to come back to protect Nikky and Landy when the gov't hunts them down. No way they just let them walk IMO. He has motivation to be concerned for their safety now and I just don't think the gov't coming after him makes as much sense at this point.


Bourne and Nikky, I suspected that she was perhaps used in his training as a pychological method, or perhaps was just present as a member of the training team that had some interest/involvement with him. But I don't think it was full blown romance or anything.

However I could see that developing and I wouldn't fault it as a storyline. To me while Tim is right to say that her hair dye and running is like Franke in Identity, they did hold off and deny any sort of forced romance in this case. So if it develops with further interaction that doesn't seem so cheap, they already had them not "instantly" fall in love. Standard H'wood would have had Nikky/Bourne together on the run at the end, so give credit there.


I left honestly thinking that this film could pull Oscar noms for - Sound (both), Editing, Screenplay (smart "villians", smart hero, strong emotional motivations, still character driven despite hectic pace), Score (if eligible) and then perhaps even another Director's nom for Greengrass (this seems the least likely of the batch).

The use of sound and music in the film to set the scenes and moods was incredible, and the editing is exactly why the shaky cam stuff works, it makes the most of all the back and forth cutting and camera movement. To me the editing is why the film feels so tight and intense.

 

[Seth Paxton]

I forgot to mention that another key plot point that has obviously been opened up for further installments is that whole "why would this person agree to do this stuff?"

Seems obvious to me that something pretty messed up happened to him to put him in the state of mind he was when he voluteered. That wasn't just a "I'd sure like to help my country, I'm pretty good in a scrap", that was "someone killed my whole family and I've got nothing to go back too" all over his motivations IMO. I would expect that to be something he will now go in search of.


So I couldn't decide if he shot that guy as his FINAL part of training to show he's ready, or as proof of his full comittment before ENTERING the training. Both seem reasonable.

And that ain't no "he joined the CIA", that's not a CIA program, it's way more sinister and experimental. Remember that he and Clive Owen were still getting headaches from the treatment. We still don't know just how nasty that full treatment was, what level of drug/pysch combo was applied, or how the training process went along even.

I think of Bourne as more of the V for Vendetta soldier than some regular CIA recruit.



Wait a second, some of you guys were okay with Bourne using another human body as a 5 story insta-elavator (and shooting another agent on the way down no less) and then getting up and walking away just fine but can't accept him making it through a couple of rough car crashes. Not sure what part of physics Scotty would describe "ride a human body for 70 feet to the concete, you'll be fine" falls under, or even a Mini Coop still running after slamming it's front axel several times while going down those stairs, but I don't think it would be "normal".