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*** Official THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

Robert Crawford

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Yes, during her conversation with Bourne in this film, she mentioned he was the first one which suggests they worked closely together at the start of the program and thus, may have developed some kind of relationship. Also, didn't she live in Paris too? If so then they resided in the same city which could have been another factor in their relationship.
 

Chuck Mayer

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There would be NO relationship of any sort, unless part of the training, in the sort of training Bourne is undertaking. There aren't nights out or after work parties.

Seth, you shoot the guy to begin the training. You show the committment to the pipeline before you go through with it. Sounds draconian, but it saves money. Why spend millions on experimental testing and ridiculous training to find out the guy won't follow "orders" at the end? And again, I think you need more than a guy with nothing to lose. You need someone certain. You need a Captain America who doesn't question. And of course you join...guys like that feed on being the tip of the spear, the very best. That's why elite military units lead to even MORE ELITE units. It's spiral and viral.
 

Chuck Mayer

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Well, of course it's my opinion, Robert. When I was at a service academy, I couldn't be married...and that was just college :)

But the type of training he would be involved in was 100% controlled. If you are being reprogrammed, it's unlikely you are chummy with anybody, much less a member of the opposite sex. I can't speak to their Paris relationship...I could only speculate on that level. The other assets all were isolated and alone, though Bourne did have a nice little pad in the city of love. I was referring to his training period. I agree she might have been used a tool for the training, and she may have felt something for him. But whatever they did to him, he slept there, ate there, crapped there...and probably always on camera.
 

Chuck Anstey

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I'll toss in my 2 cents in the Nikky / Bourne relationship. She said in the movie "You were the hardest". What does that mean exactly? Obviously there were others and others seems likely to refer to the other "trainees". That would suggest she wasn't his girlfriend or that they knew each other before the training. How was he the hardest? The hardest to get over? Doesn't seem likely that she was directly part of the training that she would form a personal bond with the trainees.

My theory here is that she was aware of the training and "You were the hardest" meant that Bourne was the hardest to convert to an unquestioning assassin. This is supported by the initial flashback in Ultimatum to the "I can't do it" statement and then he was tossed in the water tank. Also the notes that Landy read in his file about him requiring additional effort / drugs during training. Nikky saw the "good in him" for lack of a better term and felt bad for him that he was turned into a cold-blooded killer. She helped him because she could see he was going back to his better, previous self. The "You don't remember anything?" line could refer to his training or it could refer to some conversations / mild relationship the two of the had during his early assignment.
 

rich_d

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I think you guys are sweating something that is deliberately ambiguous.

The filmmakers leave things open for interpretation. Each will find the solution that fits their view of things.

This also sets up something to be solved in another film. A teaser if you will.
 

Citizen87645

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It seemed the filmmakers teased us with the idea of the two going on the run together but then made it rather clear they weren't interested in reincarnating Marie in the Nikki character. As someone who never really liked the Nikki character (or the casting of Stiles in it) I felt a degree of scheudenfrade when she looks to Bourne, implying she wants to go on the run with him, but he shuts her down. And then to leave no question that Nikki ain't no Marie, she dyes and cuts her hair in the same way but has to do it alone, denied the intimacy that Bourne and Marie shared in the first film. Though I do have to say Stiles looked pretty cute with the new 'do. :)
 

Robert Crawford

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Which is my point about people having their own opinions based on their personal interpretation of the film.
 

Southpaw

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Alright, I now have total admiration for Paul Greengrass. The guy can direct. 3 wonderful titles in a row for me - Supremacy, United 93 and now Ultimatum. He is now at the top of my must see list.
Imperial Life in the Emerald City is now my most anticipated movie and I have to wait 2 years!!!
Can't wait to buy this on HD DVD. Universal, can you release this before Xmas?? Please....
 

Josh.C

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I have always hated the Nikki character and as some have said, thought Stiles was way wrong for the part. However, they did a better than average job of giving her some life in this film.

I am happy that they cut the relationship off, and didn't make it into a romance. It wouldn't have been believeable for me.
 

rich_d

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I find it curious that the Nikki character has received so much interest and (for the most part) disfavor.

In the first film, Nikki just needed to be a young professional working the computer.

In the second film, Nikki just needed to act quite scared her life was in great danger.

In the third film, Nikki gets a more substantial role where she stops doing what is expected of her and takes a risk. One that changes her life.

So, if it is the character, what exactly is there to dislike? If it's the actress, what exactly didn't Stiles get right?

My own view is that the filmmaker deliberately set up the shot of Nikki with dark hair for the moment she looks like a doppelgänger of Marie i.e. a woman turns into the love he lost, a la Vertigo.

I see it as the filmmakers borrowing from Mulholland Dr. (which borrows from Vertigo). In Mulholland Dr., Betty helps Rita change her hair color from dark hair to a blonde. In Bourne Identity, Jason helps a woman change her hair color. In Vertigo, Scottie turns a dark haired woman into his blonde love. In Supremacy, a woman turns into a look-a-like of the love of Jason's life.

The interesting question than becomes: is Jason attracted to Marie because (despite her punked out hair) she reminds him of prior love Nikki? Think of it as Scottie on the street seeing Judy Barton for the first time and seeing past her hair color. Even a more mindf**king question is: was Nikki's hair originally dark when he first met her?

Perhaps, just perhaps Jason face down in the water is not the only theme that comes full circle. This too perhaps Vertigo related (in retrospect) as both Madeleine and Bourne are rescued from the sea.
 

Josh.C

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I guess my problem with Stiles casting as Nikki in the earlier Bourne films is that she had no real personality or purpose. Yes, it can be said that this is the way the character was written, and she was just playing her part.

I don't think any of us are going to argue that Julia Stiles is the next Meryl Streep, but she did have a name coming into the Bourne series, and had been the lead in a few movies (10 things I hate about you, Save the Last Dance, etc.), so I guess the problem for me was that I expected her to have a larger role in the films. You could have found any scrub extra to play that part IMO.

This took away from the first 2 films for me, because in the back of my mind, I was always waiting for "something" from her character, and never got it until the Bourne Ultimatum.

This is simply my personal take on why I didn't care for her being cast in the role of Nikki. I think it would have been a perfect fit for a young unknown actress to help her come along slowly and mature into something bigger, by the end of the series.
 

Holadem

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Beats me, I don't get the Nikki hate either. I never gave the character much thought, including in this installment. Here she serves extremely effectively as a the prey for one badass chase (my friend swore to walk out if she got killed -- my heart was in my throat the whole time), allows Bourne some emotional outlet and provides ground for future exploration by hinting at a possible past. The actress is fine in a role that's pretty straight forward.

Bourne making a move on Mikki after her change into a vague Marie look-alike would have been seriously disturbing, and indeed firmly in Vertigo territory. That's a whole new depth of fuck up that Bourne hasn't sunk to yet :). It's not the type of psych disfunction I am interested in exploring in this series.

--
H
 

Citizen87645

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My primary issue with Stiles in the first film was that she looked way too young - I think I actually laughed out loud when I saw her and thought to myself, "Hm. I guess the mysterious Treadstone recruits people out of high school." I wouldn't have had as much of a problem with her appearance as young if her character/performance didn't reinforce the presumptions tied to it. I guess I don't understand why she has to seem so in over her head most of the time - one would assume she'd have a little more edge to her, even though she's not field trained (though by now you'd think she'd get a little more of it). Every time she's shown up since the first film, I keep wondering why the CIA keeps employing her or why she hasn't left due to stress. So it's not so much I dislike her, it's that I don't understand the point of her (beyond just being an all-too-easy foil).
 

Colton

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What is it with today's films? Why is it that when I'm watching a scene of two men having a sit down discussion that the camera is bobbing around as if it were being operated by a 95 year old man with Parkinson's? I don't mind so much of the action scenes with the cameraman running behind the actor as if you were there, but for crying out loud ... what happened to the days of keeping a camera on a steady crane? It's irritating how overused this procedure has become.
 

DavidJ

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Your post made me laugh because I had similar thoughts when I saw it. I'm beginning to think Greengrass was born on a boat in the middle of a storm. It might explain his love of the shaking camera. Despite being warned about it in Supremacy, it didn't bother me and it felt right in United 93. It seemed out of place in at times in this one. Of course this one struck me as an exercise of style without enough focus on plot. Despite how good the action is handled and a few great sequences, it is my least favorite of the series. I'm still very interested in seeing anything by Greengrass as he has impressed me with his work. I might have liked it more if the theater I saw it in was not 90 degrees.
 

Ken Chan

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It's a very nervous discussion. Literally, "I will be killed for telling you this, and you'll be killed for knowing it." And they were.
 

Robert Crawford

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You do realize that Nicki's cover was that of an American student in Paris? So in my opinion, Stiles fit that profile since she was college student at the time of the first film. In this film, you can see some of her survival training as she was running for her life. If they ever did a fourth film, I think this character will have an even larger role as each film has seen her role expanded a little more in them.

Perhaps, Stiles isn't your cup of tea, but I always liked her as an actress that has taken some career chances with some of her roles.
 

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