Apple TV+ My Fair Lady 4K Dolby Vision coming to iTunes on November 24 2020! (1 Viewer)

[ManW_TheUncool]

I didn't say everyone, I said practically everyone. It's not always an easy task to disable HDR/DV on most streaming devices, and quite a few people probably wouldn't know (or even possibly care) how to do it anyway.

Actually, would disabling HDR/DV even solve the issue? Not clear to me if that would be so.

Isn't at least some very substantial aspect of the HDR baked into the video and can't actually be "disabled"?

Certainly, there doesn't usually seem to be some simple/straightforward way to yield, "perfect" SDR results from 4K/HDR discs by disabling the HDR -- some kinda conversion to SDR is unusually needed.

I'm aware that DV is implemented as extra layer of metadata that can simply be ignored in general, but proper playback of the base encode probably usually needs to account for the HDR/HDR10 layer/metadata, no? And I kinda doubt (most of) the black crush is applied by the HDR metadata instead of being baked into the base encode... unless...

Maybe disabling HDR is not quite the correct way to call it, but rather adjusting the tone curve to yield better results, which seems common enough, if the black crush isn't actually baked in and irreversible...

_Man_

 

[dpippel]

Actually, would disabling HDR/DV even solve the issue? Not clear to me if that would be so.

Isn't at least some very substantial aspect of the HDR baked into the video and can't actually be "disabled"?

Certainly, there doesn't usually seem to be some simple/straightforward way to yield, "perfect" SDR results from 4K/HDR discs by disabling the HDR -- some kinda conversion to SDR is unusually needed.

I'm aware that DV is implemented as extra layer of metadata that can simply be ignored in general, but proper playback of the base encode probably usually needs to account for the HDR/HDR10 layer/metadata, no? And I kinda doubt (most of) the black crush is applied by the HDR metadata instead of being baked into the base encode... unless...

Maybe disabling HDR is not quite the correct way to call it, but rather adjusting the tone curve to yield better results, which seems common enough, if the black crush isn't actually baked in and irreversible...

_Man_

You're correct. I believe the device would have to perform a HDR -> SDR conversion, which would open up a whole new can of worms.

 

[cda1143]

Actually, would disabling HDR/DV even solve the issue? ...Isn't at least some very substantial aspect of the HDR baked into the video and can't actually be "disabled"?

Certainly, there doesn't usually seem to be some simple/straightforward way to yield, "perfect" SDR results from 4K/HDR discs by disabling the HDR -- some kinda conversion to SDR is unusually needed....

Maybe disabling HDR is not quite the correct way to call it, but rather adjusting the tone curve to yield better results, which seems common enough, if the black crush isn't actually baked in and irreversible...

You're correct. I believe the device would have to perform a HDR -> SDR conversion, which would open up a whole new can of worms.

Very interesting questions. With 4K/HDR discs, there is a simple straightforward way to yield excellent SDR results - Panasonic 420, 820, or 9000.

In this instance, we are talking about a stream. The simple straightforward way to yield SDR is Apple TV set to 4K/SDR, Match Range off. These results are also usually excellent.

Wether either of these methods solves this particular problem does depend on how much of the problem is baked in to the stream.

With a film like this, where we know the attributes of the master, there’s an additional method which might be worth trying – downloading the stream. That limits it to 1080p. It’s possible that would yield an image like the Blu-ray.

Anyone who has purchased the stream from iTunes can try that and compare.

 

[roxy1927]

I feel the 4k has less grain and more clarity on my 86". Maybe too much. One see the wigs and make up all too well. Even Rex's toupee which Cecil took such care with. I always feel that the filmmakers never meant for the film to be seen like this.
Another but and this is a big but. Though very fine the colors don't quite glow like they do on the bluray and neither is the sound as good. A bit of overall dulling though you wouldn't notice it if you weren't that familiar with the film.
Certainly the 50th anniversary bluray is the closest I recall to the original gorgeous 70mm print I saw at the Warner/Strand. I also saw the film on its two runs at the Criterion but was so young I barely remember the film presentation itself just the Broadway showmanship of a roadshow film.

 

[Worth]

You're correct. I believe the device would have to perform a HDR -> SDR conversion, which would open up a whole new can of worms.

I don't think iTunes converts HDR-SDR. If you turn off HDR in the settings, it defaults to the HD version, which is a separate video file, usually (but not always) based on the same master as the 4K.

 

[cda1143]

I don't think iTunes converts HDR-SDR. If you turn off HDR in the settings, it defaults to the HD version, which is a separate video file, usually (but not always) based on the same master as the 4K.

I don't believe this is correct (at least as far as iTunes and Netflix). This can be checked in the developer window when playing content. Have you confirmed this in the developer window?

 

[Robert Crawford]

I don't believe this is correct (at least as far as iTunes and Netflix). This can be checked in the developer window when playing content. Have you confirmed this in the developer window?

Why not, that is exactly what happens if a person purchases the 4K digital and then streams it on a non-4K display. You get the HD digital.

 

[cda1143]

Why not, that is exactly what happens if a person purchases the 4K digital and then streams it on a non-4K display. You get the HD digital.

True, but that does not mean the same thing occurs when viewing on a 4K display. The resolution and bit rate being streamed can be confirmed in the developer window. At least with iTunes and Netflix, these will be different between 4K/SDR and 1080p. I'm wondering if Worth has confirmed there are times or Apps where they are the same. I have read that on Disney Plus, only 1080p is sent with Match Range off, but I haven't tested, and can't find any confirmation.

Worth might be saying something else also - that with Match Range off, the Apple servers use the HD version, and merely upscale that to 4K. If so, that's the first I have heard that.

 

[Worth]

Well, I don't know about developer windows, but I turned off the "match dynamic range" settings on my Apple TV just to compare the differences. Fatal Attraction is available in 4K with Dolby Vision, but when you turn off HDR, it displays a completely different, older transfer.

 

[cda1143]

Well, I don't know about decoloper windows, but I turned off the "match dynamic range" settings on my Apple TV just to compare the differences. Fatal Attraction is available in 4K with Dolby Vision, but when you turn off HDR, it displays a completely different, older transfer.

I have never seen or heard of that happening before. This is on iTunes? Has that happened to you with other titles? I‘ve compared quite a few titles and have never seen this - even when I would prefer the older version (To Catch a Thief)

 

[cda1143]

I don't think iTunes converts HDR-SDR. If you turn off HDR in the settings, it defaults to the HD version, which is a separate video file, usually (but not always) based on the same master as the 4K.

BTW the ATV would certainly be capable of doing this. For all HDR10 displays, the ATV is already converting the DV signal it receives to HDR10.

 

[Robert Crawford]

True, but that does not mean the same thing occurs when viewing on a 4K display. The resolution and bit rate being streamed can be confirmed in the developer window. At least with iTunes and Netflix, these will be different between 4K/SDR and 1080p. I'm wondering if Worth has confirmed there are times or Apps where they are the same. I have read that on Disney Plus, only 1080p is sent with Match Range off, but I haven't tested, and can't find any confirmation.

Worth might be saying something else also - that with Match Range off, the Apple servers use the HD version, and merely upscale that to 4K. If so, that's the first I have heard that.

Well believe what you want to, but I'm thinking Worth is right and you're wrong about the digital converting from a 4K to HD streaming.

 

[Worth]

I have never seen or heard of that happening before. This is on iTunes? Has that happened to you with other titles? I‘ve compared quite a few titles and have never seen this - even when I would prefer the older version (To Catch a Thief)

So far, Fatal Attraction is the only title I've seen that does this.

 

[dpippel]

BTW the ATV would certainly be capable of doing this. For all HDR10 displays, the ATV is already converting the DV signal it receives to HDR10.

If that's the case, then why does the Dolby Vision banner pop up on my LG OLED panel when I play DV content from my ATV4K? I don't think you're right about this.

 

[cda1143]

If that's the case, then why does the Dolby Vision banner pop up on my LG OLED panel when I play DV content from my ATV4K? I don't think you're right about this.

Because your LG is DV capable is it not? I wrote that the ATV converts for HDR10 displays, meaning non DV capable displays.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Because your LG is DV capable is it not? I wrote that the ATV converts for HDR10 displays, meaning non DV capable displays.

Yes, the LG display is DV capable.

 

[dpippel]

Because your LG is DV capable is it not? I wrote that the ATV converts for HDR10 displays, meaning non DV capable displays.

Yes, my LG has DV. Sorry for misreading your comment.

 

[cda1143]

Well believe what you want to, but I'm thinking Worth is right and you're wrong about the digital converting from a 4K to HD streaming.

These are not questions of belief. The resolution of the stream is easily verified in the developer window. With the ATV set to 4K/SDR, match range off, the ATV is not streaming a 1080p signal. (except perhaps with rare titles. Worth stated he has only seen a different looking stream one time).

The question is wether Apple server (or the ATV) is either: 1. converting a 4K/HDR file to SDR, or 2. upscaling a 1080 file to 4K. It must do one or the other. I do not claim to know which.

Following the technical writing regarding the ATV indicates that 4K/SDR is 4K, rather than upscaled 1080. If anyone has actual knowledge or evidence, it would be very informative. In the meantime, observations based on comparisons, such as Worth’s are valuable.

As HDR plays so badly with projection, many projector owners spend a lot of time comparing different methods of dealing with it.

 

[cda1143]

Yes, my LG has DV. Sorry for misreading your comment.

No worries. Yours was a very good question. I ought to have specified non-DV displays. That includes all projectors, and I believe all Samsung displays. Samsung is a huge market share, so many ATVs are doing this conversion..

 

[Robert Crawford]

These are not questions of belief. The resolution of the stream is easily verified in the developer window. With the ATV set to 4K/SDR, match range off, the ATV is not streaming a 1080p signal. (except perhaps with rare titles. Worth stated he has only seen a different looking stream one time).

The question is wether Apple server (or the ATV) is either: 1. converting a 4K/HDR file to SDR, or 2. upscaling a 1080 file to 4K. It must do one or the other. I do not claim to know which.

Following the technical writing regarding the ATV indicates that 4K/SDR is 4K, rather than upscaled 1080. If anyone has actual knowledge or evidence, it would be very informative. In the meantime, observations based on comparisons, such as Worth’s are valuable.

As HDR plays so badly with projection, many projector owners spend a lot of time comparing different methods of dealing with it.

You can also change your ATV from 4K/SDR to receiving just a 1080p signal.