Microsoft pulls a 180 (heh) on Xbone DRM (1 Viewer)

[Sam Posten]

"The world went and got itself in a big damn hurry"

 

[mattCR]

"The world went and got itself in a big damn hurry"

Just watched that yesterday. Still one of my favorite films of all time.

 

[mattCR]

Here's the thing, progress requires pain. Everyone gets pissy when apple kills off the floppy or skips Bluray to go all digital downloads but if you look BACK in time you realize they were the right decisions. The alternative is to keep yourself tied to the past and never break free from it.Look, I sympathize that vast swaths of the world doesn't get broadband Internet. But if we CATER to that population then we will never have the consumer outcry and political motivations to fix that bullshit all the while hampering the millions who do. Does that make those people unwilling pawns? Perhaps yes!

Yeah, this sounds good.. but it doesn't work that way. My parents live in a town where there is no cable TV service, let alone hope of real broadband internet. At population 1,000, it's just a farm community. The nearest "city" to them is 40 minutes away and it's population 18,000. To get to a community with more then 50,000, you have to drive about an hour and a half, minimum.

No matter how much the outcry for them is to have broadband internet (and realize, they don't have 3G cell service either, it's still all EDGE or on Verizon a CDMA base) there is zippo incentive at any point to bring that kind of broadband to them. Not a matter of "wow, we wish broadband was faster", but a matter of: they can pay AT&T to get T1 service at $1,328 a month or they can get satellite wireless at 384k baseline for $50.

This seems hard to understand for people who live in the city.. hell, I'm loving my Google Gigabit connection at a property and at home I've got 60Mb, so not too slouchy.. but for a HUGE swath of Kansas, nothing like that isn't even an option.
It's not a matter of "you can't cater to them" it's that a big slice of your buying audience is simply shut out, out of the gate.. and there isn't an initiative coming down the road that makes it profitable for it to change.

Hell, AT&T announced they can't afford to provide home phone service (non-cellular) to a rack of Kansas town this year; basically anyone sub-2,000 population. If you can't get a home land line, what's your hope of getting broadband, really?

 

[schan1269]

" If you can't get a home land line, what's your hope of getting broadband, really?"

http://www.hughesnet.com/?page=Plans-Pricing#gen4

 

[TravisR]

"The world went and got itself in a big damn hurry"

I would argue that when someone lives with their face stuck in an iPad or cellphone they make their would much smaller.

 

[DaveF]

I don't care if it makes me a luddite but as far as I'm concerned, everyone downloading everything is just another step in man rushing towards the nightmarish hellscape of a future presented in Wall-E.

but isn't increasing sales of material goods also rushing us towards the hellscape of a future presented in WallE?

 

[mattCR]

" If you can't get a home land line, what's your hope of getting broadband, really?"

http://www.hughesnet.com/?page=Plans-Pricing#gen4

This is what quite a few have.. but let me say something about Hughes.. the lag is HUGE. Plus, you're missing one part of the equation:

Maximum Download per month: 5Gb.

If the only way you're getting content is to download it, 5Gb per month is nothing.. that's email and websurfing only for a lot of people.

 

[TravisR]

but isn't increasing sales of material goods also rushing us towards the hellscape of a future presented in WallE?

I was talking about the human interaction but touché.

Anyway, I've gone off topic enough so I'll drop it.

 

[DaveF]

I think digital is great as something that coexists with other methods of buying games, but all digital is kind of a bad idea. Sony tried it with the PSPgo and it didn't work. MS wasn't really trying it with the One any more than Nintendo is with Wii U or Sony is with PS3/PS4. There's still a market for vinyl records and CDs alongside MP3s, so there will always be a physical market for games, too.If console games wanted to get anywhere close to digital-only, they would need to incetivize digital purchases over physical ones. Sony did that on the Vita (10% off for digital versions) but it's a LOT easier to wait 6 months and get a physical copy of a game for half price than it is to wait a couple years until there's a good sale on a digital game. They've gotten better at reducing digital game prices, and PS+ offers tons of games for free digitally, but I don't think its good enough.

Looking at my growing collection of download-only audiobooks, eBooks, mp3's, podcasts, Mac software, and iPhone games, I realize that I'm not just accepting digital only, but prefer it increasingly to physical copy.For console games, the only reason I don't want digital only is I think it's impractical to sell 50 GB downloads. Or at least, it's no more convenient. It would be faster and easier to drive to BestBuy and back than to download BioShock Infinity+1 (an 8 hour download best case on my 15 Mbps service)That said, I think pleas of the sort "they can't go digital only, it's not fair, some of us live in the boonies with only carrier pigeons for communications" is misguided. To me, that's like saying its no fair that Tesla only sells a $50k electric vehicle since not all of us can afford it. If MS or Sony thought they could make more money digitally by cutting out the have-nots with no broadband, they'd do it. Perhaps I make a strawman argument; see prior paragraph, and I agree that the money requires physical media for Blockbuster AAA games.And practically...I'm one of those with Verizon Fios, fiber to my home, 30 minutes from the birthplace of the Internet....and I'm increasingly frustrated that I can't watch YouTube videos during prime time. I've got doubts Netflix would work well, and I see this problem hitting large game downloads. In Summary: I want digital distribution, but guess it's impractical for next-gen blockbuster games. And I'm more annoyed by $60/yr Gold to do interesting things than any of the digital vs physical concerns.

 

[DaveF]

I was talking about the human interaction but touché. Anyway, I've gone off topic enough so I'll drop it.

if we were worried about WallE we'd not be online on a forum discussing how to buy expensive things... But we can invoke 1984 on the digital stuff and probably agree just fine

 

[Morgan Jolley]

Let me ask this: what current problem prevents someone who has an internet-connected console from downloading every new release they want? Seeing as how the answer is, umm, absolutely nothing, why are we even talking about this? Is anyone here THAT upset that some people prefer buying a physical disc while others prefer downloading games? Who cares! Either way, you get the game you want. The thing that bothers me is that digital releases are cheaper to produce and cost the same as retail so there's zero incentive to buy that way.

Also, while digital downloads can take a while to download/install, Sony is really pushing the "play the game right away while the rest downloads" thing, so that won't be as big of an issue as it has been. The only other hurdle is whether or not you have broadband internet in the first place.

And if we're going to complain about having broadband internet, we can also complain about people who don't have HDTVs (XBOne and PS4 only have HDMI ports) or those who pay for everything in cash and can't buy digital stuff without buying points cards at retail and having to put in codes. There's always a minority population that you can easily appeal to while letting the "advanced" market use new stuff.

 

[DaveF]

Are all new releases for sale by download? I've looked for several older games that are not available by download. So my experience is download is exception, not the rule.But, while I may not agree 100%, I understand Sam's point. To flip it around: if Apple required all iOS software to first be sold on physical media (with download an afterthought) and installed every iPad with a slot-load DVD, the computing world would be very different right now.If a next gen console eschewed physical media, the design could be different. The mechanics could be different. The stores, distribution, and consumer experience could be very different. It is a consequential decision to have both options are available.

 

[Sam Posten]

My understanding is that both systems will have 100% day one digital availability but I don't have links to support that.We aren't going to solve the digital divide on this forum but for me digital only isn't the future, it's been my way of living for 3+ years. "The future is already here, it!s just not evenly distributed" --William Gibson

 

[Morgan Jolley]

All first-party Sony and Nintendo games are currently available on release for digital purchase. Many Microsoft games are, too, but I don't follow them as much as Sony/Nintendo. Even PS Vita and 3DS games come out digitally and on physical media. I don't know how many third party titles are on both formats, but all the big ones are. And this is talking about the current gen. This is a relatively new practice, maybe since some time last year or the year before. I know the big 3DS digital-on-release game was New Super Mario Bros. 2 and almost all of the Wii U launch games were digital at launch.

Sony has been pretty good about getting older PS3 games on the PSN store. MS, not so much, but all the big hits are on XBL.

So yeah, I don't see what the problem is. Digital-only is not as good of a selling point as digital and physical combined.

 

[mattCR]

Are all new releases for sale by download? I've looked for several older games that are not available by download. So my experience is download is exception, not the rule.But, while I may not agree 100%, I understand Sam's point. To flip it around: if Apple required all iOS software to first be sold on physical media (with download an afterthought) and installed every iPad with a slot-load DVD, the computing world would be very different right now.If a next gen console eschewed physical media, the design could be different. The mechanics could be different. The stores, distribution, and consumer experience could be very different. It is a consequential decision to have both options are available.

I think the problem, though, is far more complex.

Above, we see a reference to "not everyone has HDTV".. this is true, and surprisingly, you can still get a SD output from a PS3 and XBOX360. Or use a digital conversion box if needed... plus, users anywhere can upgrade to HDTV - if they wish. Choice.

The reference to iPad marketing/etc. is fine, also. but remember, the "big" downloads on iPad are all under 400Mb, for the most part.. most are in the 1-10Mb arena.. so someone with a 384k connection or bandwidth usage limitations is fine.

Downloading something like, say, The Last One is 34Gb on the Sony PS3. It will be bigger on the next gen consoles. Even at 60Mb/s here, I'm talking hours to download it all. Someone on a 384k connection? Impossible.

And, unlike HDTV, they can't go out and "buy" a solution. Unlike the idea of ipad, they can't use available bandwidth options which have caps on usage. So, they have nothing.

The argument of "well, it's like not everyone can afford a Tesla" doesn't really apply either.. it's not a matter of afford, it's a matter of the fact that it's not even an option for them to consider. More like: everyone switches to Hydrogen powered cars, and people in large swaths of the world have no way to refuel.. which has the counter point of making sure people who are in areas of service never go to those 'dark' areas.

I like digital delivery. I think there will be more of it. But I think it's pretty foolhardy to think we're at a point where having it as the only means now, or even in the next 4 years is viable.

 

[Sam Posten]

We've long ago established that I am unabashedly anti-choice.

 

[Morgan Jolley]

I think the iPad is a bad example because an iPad with 10 good gaming apps is under $1,000 while a console with 10 good games and a TV to take advantage of it is at least $2,000. Add in an audio system, accessories, etc. and it's more. It's an order of magnitude difference. And the Tesla example doesn't really apply, either. Gaming is a market that tries to appeal to the broadest category possible. You NEED millions of customers. The Tesla is meant to be sold to a select few from the outset. Even Microsoft was aiming the XBOne at many millions of people, even if they couldn't appeal to everyone.The closest example would be something more like TV shows and movies. You have on-demand options, downloadable options, and physical retail options. The most convenient and current option (for both gaming and other media) will always be the PC, legitimate means or otherwise. But the producers would be idiotic to abandon retail. Who here would rather buy a boxset of their favorite TV show or movie series and have the physical box sitting on their shelf than download the seasons/movies off of Amazon or iTunes?

 

[DaveF]

I need to go back to short posts

I think the problem, though, is far more complex. ...The reference to iPad marketing/etc. is fine, also. but remember, the "big" downloads on iPad are all under 400Mb, for the most part.. most are in the 1-10Mb arena.. so someone with a 384k connection or bandwidth usage limitations is fine.Downloading something like, say, The Last One is 34Gb on the Sony PS3. It will be bigger on the next gen consoles. Even at 60Mb/s here, I'm talking hours to download it all. Someone on a 384k connection? Impossible.

Because I already agreed completely with that.

For console games, the only reason I don't want digital only is I think it's impractical to sell 50 GB downloads. Or at least, it's no more convenient. It would be faster and easier to drive to BestBuy and back than to download BioShock Infinity+1 (an 8 hour download best case on my 15 Mbps)

Gaming is a market that tries to appeal to the broadest category possible. You NEED millions of customers.

Yes. And that's why small indie games are download only (even dialup can download, and cost to retail on media is too high) while the multi-GB big-studio games are still sold retail on disc (never underestimate the bandwidth of a cargo container). I think its nothing more than an infrastructure issue. When home broadband in the US universally allows for 50GB "Bioshock Infinity+1" downloads, the disc for gaming goes away. Unlike with reading and books, nothing about physical media enhances the experience of gaming. It only detracts. (cf the great wailing and gnashing of teeth over Nintendo N64 sticking with cartridge while Sony PS lept to CD.)

 

[DaveF]

We've long ago established that I am unabashedly anti-choice.

And crazy. Don't forget crazy!

 

[Edwin-S]

Enjoy those per use access fees when it's all digital and cloud based, because you can bet the next step, once physical discs are wiped out, will be no downloading to your own physical storage device.Yeah, the wonderful world of digital will be great when the only "download" you are allowed is an access key that starts a timer, allowing game publishers and devs to charge you for every minute that you play. I'm really looking forward to that. Bring 'er on boys. YEAH!! All digital.......start your timers.....GO!!