LOST season 2 discussion thread...... (1 Viewer)

[Joseph DeMartino]

Which is why I said, "implausible", rather than "impossible." But as you note, some things are less likely than others, even within the Lost universe. I think a self-contained "dome" that one can nonetheless fly and sail into and out of, falls into the category of "seriously less likely." As for their being no "proof" it isn't true - well, it is notoriously hard to prove a negative, so much so that in ordinary life we hardly ever require people to do so. If someone proposes an idea it is up to that person to marshall facts and evidence to prove that it is true, not for skeptics to positively prove that it isn't. I can suggest that the HTF was founded by left-handed Martians last Tuesday afternoon and that Ron, and Parker and all our recollections of lo these many years are false memories the Martians implanted in us. Can you prove that I'm wrong?

Ka-Zar! The Savage Land! Greg, how could you think that people (especially here at Geek Central Station) wouldn't get that reference? Actually Scott's theory sounds more like Edgar Rice Burroughs's Pelluicdar novels, in which the center of the Earth is hollow and strange creatures inhabit a prehistoric world on the inside of the hollow sphere. (The exact center is occupied by a glowing ball that serves as a never-setting sun for the inner world.) While the heros of the first novel reach the place by means of a tunneling machine (the "mechanical mole") later exploration reveals a direct link to the surface world - at the North Pole.

(Tarzan, among others, eventually visits Pellucidar by flying down the connecting shaft in an airship. )

The Star Trek episode mentioned above is "For the World is Hollow, and I Have Touched the Sky" from the third (never should have happened) season. The plot is the old SF chestnut about the "generation", slower-than-light spaceship whose current inhabitants have forgotten that they're on a space ship and think their artificial environment is the whole world. (The title comes from a line of dialogue - and old man who had climbed the taboo artificial mountains in his youth and quite literally touched the "sky" reveals his secret to Kirk and company. And is promptly killed by usual TOS Giant Evil Computer* [pat. pend.] for his trouble.)

In this case the ship is disguised as a huge asteroid and it is in dire need of a course correction so it doesn't wipe out an inhabited planet it happens to be passing along the way. (Evidently its designers were aiming for an uninhabited planet in the next system over.) So the Enterprise has to chuck the Prime Directive once again in order to save the place. There's also a subplot involving McCoy coming down with a fatal illness, falling in love with the High Priestess of the Giant Evil Computer [pat. pend.] Religion, deciding to marry her and retire to the asteroid for the year or so he has left to live. It is like someone lifted all the worst scenes and ideas from all of the previous episodes, stuck them in a blender and hit "frappe". Many fans argue about whether "Spock's Brain" or "Turnabout Intruder" was the worst-ever TOS episode, but I think they're overlooking a strong contender in this turkey.

Regards,

Joe

* IBM must have hated that show.

 

[TonyD]

not a good idea this dome theory.
just wouldnt work.for the reasons already stated.

that would be a physical dome.

now as for a electro magnetic dome or one formed from some other energy, could see that.
a force field of sorts.
when the numbers dont get pushed the force field is removed for that time frame.
as for how the key turn plays into the force field idea, i havent figured that part of it out.

the hatch door obviously was blown straight up into the air and just fell right back down.
or was sucked back down by the magnet.

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Ok, how about these aliens have a transporter set up, and if you sail or fly through it you get sucked in? (I can't believe I said that!)

Anyway, I don't think that the 'flying' hatch is from the first place they found. There are others that they haven't discovered yet - so I just figure that one more of them is now left open to the elements.

Just to set the record straight, they did show some mountains outside of where the "scientists" were, so that can't be the Artic. Besides, I figure that if they are looking for strange magnetic stuff and find one, they'd get a better hit being in the Southern Hemisphere.

I still believe that it is actually a video game, sort of like a modern version of D&D.

Glenn

 

[Rain]

Man you guys are really grasping at straws now.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Hard to say since there is so much we don't know. I think you're right that letting the numbers run down is what turns off (or breaks through) the force field, however briefly. I had thought the fail-safe switch did that, but the guys in the ice station talk about having missed "the last one", and as far as we know nobody's ever used that key before. (Shades of both actual nuclear missle launches and The Andromeda Strain, by the way. I kept waiting for lasers to start shooting at Desmond. Just watched that the other night on one of the HD movie services.)

I do think letting the numbers run down sets off some kind of massive magnetic chain reaction that starts sucking everything towards whatever is buried under the island.

Here's what I would posit as the first draft of a "grand unified theory" of the Island:

1) There is a magnetic anomaly on or beneath the island that has all sorts of strange properties and which may be a purely natural phenomenon. It certainly pre-dates Hanso's interest. The fact that the anomaly exists drew Hanso to the island, they didn't create it, and they don't understand it. (Though they tried to harness it.) It is also possible that the hypothetical four-toed race that inhabited the island long ago created the magnetic phenomenon, or at least did as Hanso has done and built hidden machinery to exploit it.

2) One of the inherent properties of the island is the force field which renders both the main island and its immediate surroundings - including one or more other islands or atolls - effectively invisible at most wavelengths of electromagnetic engery, including visible light.

3) The field is not uniform. Along some axes ships and planes (or other objects with sufficient metal content that get close enough) can be drawn into it. Along others (at least one of which is known) ships, etc. can leave.

4) The EM phenomenon affect biological, as well as physical systems. This would explain the unexpected healings (Rose, Locke, Jin) and the quarrantine.

5) Hanso/Dharma somehow discovered the island (or islands) and built a research facility aimed at exploiting all aspects of the natural EM anomaly. To this end they brought specimens, including human volutneers, on which to conduct various experiments even while they were building machinery to control or modify IMA-1. (Island Magnetic Anomaly 1 for those of you who haven't seen 2001 a hundred times. )

6) In addition to seeking to extend the Human lifespan (a search for the Fountain of Youth, in effect, and legends of earlier visitors to the island may have been the source of that idea) and cure disease, Hanso was probably seeking to induce, study and exploit paranormal powers like telepathy, telekinesis and teleportation. It may be such psi abilities are able to defeat the islands defenses and are what allowed some ships in times past to find the island, and to leave it. (Because if someone hadn't been there and escaped, it could never have come to Hanso's attention.) Maybe the heading Henry gave Michael is arbitrary, and that the real reason he is able to leave the island is that he has Walt with him. Or maybe you need to both be on the proper heading and have someone with psi abilities in order to escape. Either way, that would explain why the Others wanted Walt, and why they lost interest in the raft after they siezed Walt. They would have known that there was no way the raft could escape the island. (Presumably Henry gave Michael a heading that would intersect with a major shipping lane and lead to rescue, since there is no way that boat held food, water or fuel to cross any substantial amount of ocean, and it is unlikely that IMA-1 lies very close to any major landmass or inhabited area.)

7) There was an "incident", perhaps two, which changed everything. I think whatever Hanso/Dharma did to modify IMA-1 started a runaway magnetic reaction, like the one we saw when Locke prevented Eko from entering the numbers. This may have been the result of bad design or a technical failure in Dharma's equipment, or they may have triggered a self-destruct mechanism left behind by the Ancient Race that used tolive on the Island. Dharma's equipment was somehow responsible. They had the fail-safe switch to disable all of their gear (perhaps permanently), but they didn't want to use it unless absolutely necessary, because that would ruin the experiment and set them back years, perhaps decades. They somehow figured out that they could reset the doomsday countdown and implemented the number system. (That may have really been built as a psychological test and the hardware been adapated on short-notice to staving off catastrophe. Probably no one expected the system to be in use for more than a couple of days, as they would have probably called for help and sat back to wait for "him" to arrive and save them all.

8) Nothing about the Dharma initiative suggests that they had access to truly advanced technologies, much less the kind of super science implied by the "monster" which whoever drew the hatch map called a "security system". One workable hypothesis is that the original inhabitants of the island did have access to such technology, and were an advanced civilization along the lines posited in some versions of the Atlantis myth. Which would mean the "monster" is their security system. It may be running on automatic, with the original people of the island either extinct or long gone. Perhaps they hid the island from view when they abandoned it. Or there may be some remnant of them (perhaps living apart, perhaps infiltrated into the Losties or the Others) that still directs it.

9) There are suggestions that the "monster" may be telepathic, perhaps even sentient, since it seems to either read memories or to induce people to recall things. Maybe the moster is the one who determines who is "good" and who "bad". Maybe the monster is one of those hoary SF cliches, the automatic defense system that goes on carrying out the last instructions of its masters. It could also be the artificial intelligence or system that achieves genuine sentience on its own, as a by-product of all it learns. Either way, it may be working to ensure that what happens on the island stays on the island, by keeping the outside world from finding the place or using its advanced technology for evil purposes. (Hence killing the pilot before he can tell Jack and company too much, scanning and releasing both Locke and Ecko, who seem fundamentally begnin in their intentions, etc.)

10) It may be that the Others see themselves as "the good guys" because they've discovered some of the island's secrets and intend to keep them. They aren't overtly hostile to the Losties, they're just mostly indifferent to them until and unless they do something to get in the way of their plans. Conversely they may want to exploit the discoveries themselves when the right moment arrives to escape.

Thoughts? Corrections? Derisive laughter?



Joe

 

[TonyD]

i think that may be what is meant.
sometimes people just say arctic when either pole is talked about
forgetting then one is different then the other

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

For those of you scratching your heads trying to think of a philosopher named "Desmond", his full name is "Desmond Hume", as in David Hume (1711 to 1776), Scottish enlightenment philosopher, historian and economist. Hume was much influenced by the writings of fellow Scott John Locke (1632 to 1704) and he personally knew the Franco-Swiss philosopher Jean Jacques Rousseau (1712 to 1778.)

Interestingly all of these men were influential, to one degree or another, on the American Founders. Madison was influence (in some areas) by Hume (although not in Hume's rejection of property rights as natural rights), and Locke's writings, especially the Second Treatise of Government in the library of virtually all the Founders and Framers, and certainly influenced John Adams when he drafted the Massachuessetts Constitution - which is still mostly in force as he wrote it, and which was an obvious, though often unacknowleged, inspiration for the United States Constitution which came later. (Adams was not a member of the Constitutional Convention, being on duty overseas as the first American ambassador to Great Britain, but there are passages in the two documents that are almost word for word the same and the structures are very similar. Not that Benjamin Franklin or Alexander Hamilton, who were at the convention, would ever have admitted it. )

Rousseau was mostly a negative influence. His Social Contract and social theories mostly gave the Founders a feel for what they wouldn't base their society on. Rousseau is responsbile for the myth of "the noble savage", demanded that the individual submit himself to the needs of society or "the general will" and supported censorship to keep the ignorant masses from being led astray. Robspierre was a devotee of Rousseau's and the different courses the American and French revolutions took can in part be explained by one being inspired by Locke and the Scottish Enlightenment and the other being inspired by Rousseau and the French Enlightenment.

Thomas Carlyle (1785 to 1881) shares Boone's last name. Another Scott, he wrote an influential history of the French Revolution. (Wrote it twice, actually, after John Stuart Mill's maid accidentally burned the only manuscript of his original draft. ) His political and economic writings influeneced everybody from Karl Marx to Benito Mussolini.

Shannon's last name was Rutherford. Although scientist Ernest Rutherford was the first famous person of that name that I thought of, I suspect she was named for Samuel Rutherford 1600 ? to 1661, yet another Scott (!) and an influence on Hobbes, Locke, et. al. (In fact, at this point I'm amazed that there isn't someone in the show named Thomas Hobbes. How did he get missed?)

How this all might apply to Lost is beyond me. Maybe Abrams just took a survey course in 18th Century Western Philosophy and thought it would be fun to use the names of a lot of philosophers as a lark.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Glenn Overholt]

I like the laughter part!

Not bad, all in all. I still have a problem with how the plane (from Africa) got there, along with the ship - Black Rock. That was a slaver, and I thought that the only slave trade routes were between Africa and the US. From all accounts I've seen, no one ever tried to make slaves out of any Polynesians. It's like there's some sort of a portal from there to the island.

I'm stopping now because I hear that 'Twilight Zone' theme in my head now! Ouch!

Glenn

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

The Bounty mutineers did, on Pitcairn island. But that's another story.

Regards,

Joe

 

[EricW]

i still don't know why The Others are/were not concerned with hitting the button. is it possible that they were under the same impression as Locke? i doubt it. and Henry apparently did punch the numbers in the Lockdown episode. the only thing i can think of is that the meltdown was either part of their grande plan, or was inevitable/necessary/indifferent to their plan (like Die Hard or Inside Man or something).

 

[Richard Travale]

At one point Desmond said that he should have hit Fiji within a day or so. I assumed he knew what he was talking about because he had been in the race and obviously knew the waters he was sailing.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

He said that after he returned, to the island right?

Let's see. He set out from Australia, failed to reach his next scheduled port of call, drifted around the Pacific for an unknown amount of time, and finally washed up on the island unconcious and disoriented after wrecking his boat in a storm. So he effectively had no idea where he was when he landed, because he was clearly off course to begin with, and his compass would (of course) have been screwed up once he was within "range" of the island.

Nor do we have any indication that he knew the waters he was racing in. Clearly he knew something about sailing, and he'd been working out and practicing his skills, but I don't recall anything that indicated he was an experienced sailor in the southern Pacific. He certainly wouldn't have known the waters around the island, since nobody sails there and he never meant to go anywhere near it.

He may have a guess as to where the island lies, but I see no reason to believe him. He's been stranded for three years, alone without a decent night's sleep for at least months, suicidally depressed and borderline nuts. (Not to mention his drinking problem.)

Maybe he assumes that, based on his last known position, he has landed on a charted island somewhere, and therefore that he knows how far Fiji is. He may not know that he's on a hidden island that doesn't appear on any chart. Hence his confusion.

I can't see taking that statement at face value.

Regards,

Joe

 

[TravisR]

I don't think that is what's happening but I love the idea. I can picture the guy 'playing' Boone throwing his controller down and shouting out "Dammit! I fell in the plane. I hate this game!"

 

[JoshRas]

I was just reading the new posts for the day and I was wondering about the black rock and nigerian plane and then someone else mentions it. Funny how people think alike.

I was just thinking...ballpark figure...there are about 10-20 major mysteries still unsolved on this show. How many do you think will be answered by the show is over and what would be your guess for how long Lost is on the air?

I'm guessing there will be still probably like 10 once the show goes off the air-considering there are more presented just about every show. As for number of seasons, I would guess 6-10. Pretty vague I know but I would guess 6 is the minimum and if ratings are still somewhat good, the show could go 10. They could stretch 10 years of real time to about 2-4 island time or even flash forward quite a bit and the current losties could be the next Others. Maybe thats what Jack, Kate and Sawyer were kiddnapped....

 

[EricW]

i don't know. a hit this year is not necessarily a hit 4 years from now. gradually the audience erodes while the costs go up. especially a show where suspension of belief is critical, and the show's a mystery to boot. sooner or later you have to start answering more questions than asking them. i guess an example would be x-files - though that show was a cult-ish commercial hit, it was never a major hit like Lost is now, but that only means Lost has alot more room to fall if the writing goes south.
i really hope they wrap up the show in 4-5 years - unless the writing is extraordinarily good, i can't see how they'd keep it fresh any longer.

 

[JediFonger]

XF is a bit diff, it wasn't orchestrated the way modern major arcs are. on the other hand, the cinematic strokes of modern TV show owe 90% of the look to XF's innovations.

the biggest obstacle in Lost's way is salaries of its stars. check out gateway.net's interview with well run showrunners of stargate (10th season), a similar genre show. with only 4 primary cast mates the salary of the stars and crew can often end a show. every year the stars of Lost will want a raise, as do most of the crew. this is such a large cast... i just can't imagine the types of salary negotiations that take place.

 

[Mikah Cerucco]

I'd like a link if you have one.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

The economics of modern TV do work against very long runs. Unless a show is a monster hit and/or the network owns a piece of it so it will share in syndication, overseas and home video revenue, it is very hard for a show to run beyond the 7 years of the standard TV contract. (Union contracts already have annual raises built-in, but actors - and others - on a very successful show will still try to get a little more. Many shows have "most favored nations" clauses in contracts that require the top 3 or 4 actors to get the same salary, which means a raise for one is a raise for all.)

It is not a coincidence that all the Trek shows save the original and the ratings-challenged Enterprise ran 7 years. Instead of paying through the nose to re-up Patrick Stewart et. al. Paramount just bumped that cast up to the feature films, repackaged the Trek universe as DS9 and started with a blank financial slate.

NBC was willing to pay a huge amount to keep Friends for an extra couple of seasons (in fact they just kept throwing money at the reluctant and already rich stars until they would have had to be nuts not to come back) but that is the exception, not the rule.

I would guess that Abrams and Co. are basically planning for 7 years, but keeping their options open so they can wrap things up sooner if need be (and if they're given adequate notice) and so that they can stretch it a year or two if the actors are willing and ABC shows up with wheelbarrows full of money. But the rule of thumb still holds that you'd like to have at least 100 episodes for syndication (although serial shows like Lost burn out notoriously quickly in reruns and have to be "rested" more often than more episodic dramas or sitcoms) so hardly anybody plans to do fewer than 5 seasons going into a show.


I'm not sure where you got your "10 to 20" figure, which strikes me as high for major mysteries, but I don't think there will be any left unanswered unless the ratings drop catastrophically at some point and the show is cancelled in mid-season. As long as they have some kind of advanced notice, I don't see any reason why the producers wouldn't/couldn't wrap all the major mysteries up.

I also think you're underlying premise is wrong.

1) They don't introduce a new major mystery in every episode.

2) They are gradually starting to clear up some mysteries as the show moves forward. An awful lot of the questions we had early in the 1st season have been answered. We've just shifted our focus to the ones that are left and the new ones that have been added, so we tend not to notice.

Regards,

Joe

 

[TravisR]

There's only two items that, in my eyes, seem to have been dropped or forgotten about. Neither really seem that important and any given episode could fill in the blank.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Don't suppose you'd care to be specific? Because of course this is now going to bug some of us.

Regards,

Joe