Leno moves nightly to primetime (1 Viewer)

[mattCR]

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It is strange to see you write that given that my comments directly mirrored your own, just with a different, indeterminate set of people as the target. You have a double-standard: The people you want to insult, it is okay to insult them, but the people you like, it isn't okay to insult them.

I think you should take your advice to heart: Recognize and acknowledge that large companies don't regularly act like idiots. Recognize and acknowledge that the needs of consumerists need to be balanced with the needs of investors, and the needs of taxpayers, and the needs of employees, and the needs of communities, etc. The extremism you've put forward against the networks is the root of the problem.

I think you may be reading something into what I'm saying. All of us here, in every thread, criticize and chastise television programs which we don't like, we comment when a show seems to be going downhill. That is the nature of being a consumer. And, you can disagree with everything we think. And, you've been a good advocate of the point of view of the network, though it's one many here disagree with.

But no one in this thread, to my following, has ever referred to you personally in negative tones or used ad hominem directed against you. We've addressed an argument we don't agree with.

As far as insulting NBC, we don't have to, media buyers are doing that for us. Law & Order SVU went down from a 3.8/share last year to a 2.6 last night. If it was losing money at 10PM with a 3.8, then I don't see how it's doing any better where it is now.

But while I chastise NBC for what I feel is a short sighted plan that in the longterm hurts - far more then if they just ran Dateline 3 nights a week and some reality program 2 (JMHO),

As is pointed out above, large business make errors. We make errors. Everyone makes errors. But the expression of what we think about the judgement of a company is something everyone can voice their own thoughts about.

But no one on this side of the argument is calling individuals who we know here as anything for expressing their opinion. I'm glad you have your opinion. I just think you're wrong. And I say this not as someone who hates the networks. Hell, I have GE stock, I hope they do well.

I'm saying this not as someone crabby and bitchy about my viewpoint.
I believe companies don't regularly act like idiots. I think in the bevy of programming available on cable and networks, you're seeing several networks who are being absolute genious in their programming choices and making splashes which have helped them be far more profitable. Bravo has turned cheap reality shows into drama that draws advertisers and eyeballs, while putting forward reality-game shows that get big (for cable) ratings. SyFy has been the king of developing incredibly cheap serialized drama like "Warehouse 13" and "Eureka" both of which, per episode, are less then $1M, which is breakthrough dollar range for their worth.

There are several networks even under the Universal header that are trying unique things and making a go at it.

I just don't buy into NBC's strategy. Sorry. But that doesn't make me a self centered idiot. And it doesn't mean I'm not thinking of it as an investment strategy, or how the network can see it.
Zucker made it clear last year that he thinks NBC is done "trying to be #1" and he wants to be profitable on the ground. And that's fine. Only time will tell longterm how this plays out. But if NBC finds things going the same direction - Jay profitable while the Tonight Show loses ground and it's previous network programming has big drops in rating #s while other networks see ratings hold steady, then I don't know how he can call it a "success", from any measuring stick.

 

[DaveF]

Originally Posted by Brian^K

* People posting online act like idiots an order of magnitude or two more often than large companies.

Indeed. But you seem to consistently assume a level of skill and rational behavior in large companies in general and of NBC in particular that (in my experience) isn't necessarily warranted.

 

[Brian^K]

All of us here, in every thread, criticize and chastise television programs which we don't like, we comment when a show seems to be going downhill. That is the nature of being a consumer.

I don't agree, though, that blatant and unchecked consumerism is necessarily a good thing. No perspective ever deserves an unrebutted soap-box. Such destructive constructs inextricably lead to some folks getting the idea that such a one-sided perspective should actually prevail. It justifies, in the minds of folks who lose sight of the balance, assumptions and unfounded expectations, which themselves drive even more and deeper levels of disappointment and dissatisfaction. I see nothing positive coming out of such a thing.

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And, you can disagree with everything we think. And, you've been a good advocate of the point of view of the network, though it's one many here disagree with.

I appreciate that.

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But no one in this thread, to my following, has ever referred to you personally in negative tones or used ad hominem directed against you. We've addressed an argument we don't agree with.

As have I. I suspect your negative reaction to what I've written makes you think you've seen ad hominem attacks from me. You're mistaken. I've responded in-kind -- exactly mirroring the context of the comments being responded to.

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As is pointed out above, large business make errors. We make errors. Everyone makes errors. But the expression of what we think about the judgement of a company is something everyone can voice their own thoughts about.

Many of the assertions here project the message that everything a consumer doesn't like is something that a large business did wrong. That extremism is ridiculous (literally). Expect that each time you assert that someone else has made a mistake, that there is someone who disagrees, and that their perspective is worthy of being presented to directly counter your own.

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I'm glad you have your opinion. I just think you're wrong.

Ditto.

 

[Brian^K]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveF

Indeed. But you seem to consistently assume a level of skill and rational behavior in large companies in general and of NBC in particular that (in my experience) isn't necessarily warranted.

I disagree. In my experience, including twenty years effectively comparing consumers' opinions about what is best for a business versus the business' opinions about what is best for the business, I can say with confidence that the percentage of times that the consumers were right and the businesses were wrong was remarkably small. Consumers tend to be maniacally focused on their own concerns, and very rarely have the professionalism, expertise, experience, insights, research data, and inclination to think about what's really best for the investors of a company... even consumers who are themselves investors and claim to have such perspective. Now, it's been ten years since I retired from that business, but if anything consumers have gotten more myopic, more self-motivated, more innately fearful and antagonistic towards large companies. People claim good reasons, but not objective reasons. They base their assertions on faulty assumptions, and on selected realms of consideration.

Do large businesses make mistakes? Occasionally, yes. More often, though, what consumerists choose to call "mistakes" are simply reasonable gambles that don't pan out. That's another indicator of the innate bias the colors the vast majority of curmudgeony. However, let's grant that very occasionally large businesses make mistakes: Are there occasions where consumers actually foresaw a correct decision? Almost never. That's not to say some curmudgeon might not have actually suggested an approach that might, coincidentally, have worked better, but that's not the same as making a better decision. That's simply rolling the dice and coming up with a winning roll. So effectively, the curmudgeons are claiming primacy because they put their chips on the right spot on the craps table, claiming that that was something other than different luck.

And it is all pointless. That's the really funny thing. It is pointless. What the consumers really are saying is that they wish something was different. They want something. They have a desire. They prefer something. They project that as a better business decision for the business simply to make it seem more important than it really is, implicitly saying that their own wishes, wants, desires, preferences are meaningless, worthless, etc. The projection of one's preference over the business decision of professionals actually tasked with the responsibility for making the best decisions for a business is most often just a reflection of a feeling of inferiority by the curmudgeon, so often the case that it is relatively safe making that assumption in practically all cases.

Consumers should be consumers. They should wish, they should want, they should desire, they should prefer.

 

[Radioman970]

I saw the clip of Pee Wee on Leno. Everybody seemed to hate it. I'm in the minority since it was good to see Pee Wee these days. Yeah, he's a little creepy but that adds to his odd appeal. I'm a Pee Wee fan from way back, when I saw that special he did on HBO in the early 80s, and probably saw him in the odd movie now and then even before that. It's a good act he had going.

Not sure about the new leno show because I didn't really watch the old one. Haha! He seemed personable with Pee Wee. He did good letting Pee Wee get the laughs. ...I didn't see the salad bar thing mentioned above. It wasn't included in the clip I saw. Sounds very "Lettermen"...or maybe daytime talk show material.

 

[DaveF]

Originally Posted by Brian^K
Do large businesses make mistakes? Occasionally, yes. More often, though, what consumerists choose to call "mistakes" are simply reasonable gambles that don't pan out.

This where I diverge. I perceive that business consistently make mistakes. However the game is to be the least unsuccessful company in the marketplace (which is different from not making mistakes and being the most successful).

But I may be cynically colored from my own particular non-consumer driven sector.

(as for consumers knowing less than the businesses they criticize, I can believe that.)


I also caught the Green Car Challenge, I think it was. Middle aged men driving a Ford Focus slowly around a track while ping-pong balls are shot at them. The idea was funny. The execution was funny for the first 30 seconds, but then it dragged out for 10 more minutes. It's stuff I can enjoy in the background while getting ready for bed and don't want to bring up an NCIS or L&O on Tivo. It's not that it's good TV; it's amusing background noise. I don't want to root against Leno per se; but I hate seeing potentially great scripted TV killed for this.

 

[mattCR]

The caught that challenge later. Made me think of "Top Gear".. I'd love to see that in the US, but not without Clarkson. It just wouldn't be the same.

 

[pitchman]

NBC had a bad night in the ratings on Thursday. It's 8-10 comedy block is in free-fall mode with The Office being the only program to draw more than 7 million 18-49 viewers to the network (good for third place) the entire night. Leno scored a 1.7/5 rating/share (4.99 million viewers) compared to Grey's Anatomy 6.7/18 (16.52 million viewers) and The Mentalist 3.4/9 (14.33 million viewers.) No matter you how you spin it or slice it, to only deliver a 1.7 Thursday night at 10 p.m. (aka the number one place a network has to promote its shows all week) is flat-out not good. The ironic thing is that if this keeps up, the Jay Leno Show may wind up being one of the only bright spots on NBC's schedule.

 

[mattCR]

You know, over the summer, in June, NBC pulled the impossible as "Kings" scored a 0.0/0 Share, Nielson "unmeasurable" Damn the CW for cancelling "This Beautiful Life" which had a chance to be only the second major network show to pull off that feat. I'm very interested in NBC's #s tonight....

 

[Brian^K]

If NBC was being honest about what they needed, pulling a 1.7 versus that competition is a big win for them and not bad for their affiliate news shows. I know that that is going to go down like cod liver oil for the folks who were hoping and praying for justification for their condemnations of NBC. It is becoming clearer and clearer that NBC made a great decision.

I suggest folks who hate this development start praying for another network to follow suit, because it seems increasingly obvious that Leno is going to last four or five years, at least, unless his audience is undercut by a strong and significant direct competitor in the same genre.

 

[Francois Caron]

This just in. Conan injured during Tonight Show stunt.

Could it get any worse for NBC?

Oh yeah. Fallon is still on the air.

 

[pitchman]

I guess NBC executives are popping champagne corks right about now as they celebrate Jay's latest third place finish with his 1.5/5 rating/share on Friday night.

Oh, and that tired old dog, Medium, that NBC canceled at the last minute in May? It premiered on CBS last night where it was the #1 program in the 9 p.m. hour.

Meanwhile at 8 p.m., Ghost Whisperer won the hour for CBS, while the season premiere of Law & Order on NBC came in third to a repeat broadcast of Flash Forward (from Thursday night) on ABC.

At 10 p.m., 20/20 was first, followed by Numb3rs (which had more total viewers) and Jay.

CBS easily won the night and about the only solace for NBC is that Fox bombed worse than they did with the season premieres of Brothers and Dollhouse. Friday night primetime has all but become a two-horse race between CBS and ABC.

 

[MatthewA]

Perhaps the problem isn't Jay, but the fact that his show is like putting a bandage on a hemorrhage. There's nothing to lead into it. Having the 11:00 news lead into The Tonight Show is a no-brainer; it's how they've done it for decades.

 

[pitchman]

Last week I posted on another forum how I thought the way Tuesday night lays out for NBC, it could be the one night of the week that Leno finishes second in the ratings. One week later, that's exactly what happened. Benefiting from a strong (not to mention compatible) Biggest Loser lead-in, the Jay Leno Show scored a 2.3 in adults 18-49, good for a second place finish. Based on these week two results, I expect that The Forgotten will be on life support very soon (if it isn't already.) Meanwhile, the CBS NCIS-fueled juggernaut seems to be gaining even more momentum as it drew in a series high 20+ million viewers and the network went on to easily sweep all three hours of primetime. NBC had a good night too, so congratulations to them. Dancing is way down for ABC this season and I'm sure Fox is having some second thoughts about doing a fall edition of So You Think You Can Dance, but I expect them both to weather the storm. If this continues though, Tuesday nights will be a CBS cake-walk and the second best night of the week for NBC (next to Sunday night football) throughout the season.

 

[Brandon Conway]

Originally Posted by Francois Caron

As the injury was apparently minor, and his stunt bits have been some of the best stuff he's done so far, I don't see the big deal. Showmen who actually put in the effort for their audience like Conan does take risks, and sometimes things can happen.

And then he jokes about it the very first thing on Monday. What's not to like?

 

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by pitchman

I guess NBC executives are popping champagne corks right about now as they celebrate Jay's latest third place finish with his 1.5/5 rating/share on Friday night.

Oh, and that tired old dog, Medium, that NBC canceled at the last minute in May? It premiered on CBS last night where it was the #1 program in the 9 p.m. hour.

Meanwhile at 8 p.m., Ghost Whisperer won the hour for CBS, while the season premiere of Law & Order on NBC came in third to a repeat broadcast of Flash Forward (from Thursday night) on ABC.

At 10 p.m., 20/20 was first, followed by Numb3rs (which had more total viewers) and Jay.

CBS easily won the night and about the only solace for NBC is that Fox bombed worse than they did with the season premieres of Brothers and Dollhouse. Friday night primetime has all but become a two-horse race between CBS and ABC.

After I read this, I thought about the last time I tuned into NBC for any reason other than football or Conan. My only other reason is Chuck, which doesn't start until next year. I've gotten a bit tired of Conan, so the only late night show I watch now is Craig Ferguson. I only tune into Leno now if there's nothing better to do. Everything else I watch is on CBS or Fox.

 

[MikeM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThomasC

After I read this, I thought about the last time I tuned into NBC for any reason other than football or Conan.

No 30 Rock or The Office? Wow, tough crowd...

 

[Tim Tucker]

A story from today's Morning Edition from NPR

Leno Would Welcome A Return To Late Night

"Jay Leno made the switch to prime time in September. His show has not been doing very well in the ratings lately. In a published interview, Leno said if NBC offered him The Tonight Show again, he would take it. Leno's low ratings come at a time when General Electric is said to be selling a stake in NBC Universal to cable company Comcast."

 

[DaveF]

I watched a bit of his show last night, and it feels like he's phoning it in. Like Leno himself is not that amused with his own show. In contrast, Conan always seems 110% committed to the process, even when the jokes and interviews don't pay off.

 

[Brent M]

Originally Posted by Tim Tucker

A story from today's Morning Edition from NPR

Leno Would Welcome A Return To Late Night

"Jay Leno made the switch to prime time in September. His show has not been doing very well in the ratings lately. In a published interview, Leno said if NBC offered him The Tonight Show again, he would take it. Leno's low ratings come at a time when General Electric is said to be selling a stake in NBC Universal to cable company Comcast."

Tha't really a d-bag move on Leno's part to say that he'd take The Tonight Show again. It's basically another way of saying "F**k you, Conan"! I've never cared for Leno's show, but I always thought at least he was a decent guy. This totally changes my opinion of him.