I have two words for you...Bass Management UPDATED! (1 Viewer)

[Chris Rein]

I wonder if people should post what receiver and/or speaker arrangement they are using. I know that on the Yammies (and I am sure on all other receivers) you have the option to direct the LFE to the mains, sub or both (I figured "both" would be acceptable for towers and a sub). Along with these options, you have 3 other options to "manage" your bass.
1) On Yammies, you can calibrate the "Subwoofer" level along with all of the other channels (should be done with AVIA or VE) and that's one setting.
2) Dolby Digital has an option to increase/decrease the sub level. I have mine set to the default of 0. It can go down to -20, but NOT above 0.
3) DTS LFE Setting - The default is set at 0, and can go to -10 or positive 10. This part has ALWAYS confused the hell out of me. If Dolby Digital is at 0 out of a total of 20, and DTS is 0 at a total of 20, wouldn't DTS be set at +10 to "match" the Dolby Digital level? If not, then should Dolby Digital be set at -10 to match DTS? Hmmm. Interesting.
I wonder if people don't have their LFE for DTS set to the correct level, thus the "huge" differences between Dolby Digital and DTS? Just a thought. I figured I would thow that option into the mix.
Oh, and if anyone can shed some light on the above LFE levels, please let me know!!!
Chris

 

[Brett F]

The theory here is interesting. But the system that the reviewer used in the post, at dvdfile is very capable of producing bass in the mains (B&W 802). Add to this two REL subs!
So if the mix had a majority of the bass in the mains his system would have still been able to reproduce the deep bass notes. To me this will not explain the disk (or system) issues he is describing.
I read on dvd talk that Tyler Duran (the review/poster at dvdfile) posted this morning (on dvdfile) that DTS has said the disk is 6db down in the LFE. He has now edited this out of his post!?!?!?
http://talk.dvdtalk.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/018210-2.html
http://www.dvdfile.com/community/for...ML/002123.html
I imagine DTS is very unhappy with there decision to release control of the mastering of DTS disks.

 

[Shane Martin]

Answer me this?
WHY DO ALL SETUPS with all of the speakers and a great sub set to small immediately sound brighter than the large setting?

 

[David Judah]

FWIW, you might be on to something, Chris, about the DTS LFE setting.
I can't say for sure because I only have one test disc as a reference and I wouldn't want to use that alone to form my entire opinion on the matter.
The Ultimate DVD does contain seperate test tones for DD and DTS and I had to set my DTS LFE setting to +7 to match the 0 dB setting of DD on my Yamaha receiver.
Maybe future editions of Avia or Video Essentials will add DTS test tones so we have a little more to go on. I really don't know what to make of the discrepancy.
DJ

 

[Jerry Gracia]

A friend of mine has the dts versions and he has demo'd them to me at his house and I honestly can't find a real fault with either of the two sound formats.
I did notice a "drop" in bass with his dts demo, but then again, he had his front L/R speakers set to LARGE and the center and rear channels to SMALL. He has since opted to just turn up the "bass" levels when watching most of his dts DVDs.

Isn't the converstaion here specifically about the DTS version?

Jim, the topic header reads:
"I have two words for you...Bass Management"
I believe my post was in compliance with the topic at hand.
Regards!
------------------
LuvLBX
HateP&S!

 

[Max Leung]

Vince said:

Well, again: I don't think anyone in this thread has said that you're wrong if you don't hear bass. What has simply been said is that much of the bass response is in the main channels. If you set up your sysetm properly (as obi suggested you try)- then it SHOULD be fine. If it isn't fine, well then we have a new point to discuss.

My system is set up properly (all speakers small). Bass just seems to be extremely low. I mentioned that in my post I think.
However, there IS bass, I can't deny that; I just have to crank my subwoofer a bit (or adjust the LFE for DTS on my DSP-A1 manually) to hear it. Once I crank it up it sounds good. Not as good in the theatre mind you, but I'm sure if I had an SVS it would sound wonderful.
What kind of subwoofer do you need for JP DTS DVD anyhow? My subwoofer isn't the best.
How does the DD version compare Vince?
Max

 

[EricK]

Ok let me add a small disclaimer to my post.
My own quote "I have to disagree with the "bass management" idea here. Regardless of whether you set your speakers to small or large the soundtrack itself will still sound the same."
I should have also said that the soundtrack would sound the same if a person *had* "full-range" mains (capable of handling bass below that 50-40hz cut off, that most speakers can't handle. Of course most don't have mains that can handle that deep bass.
I do agree that if the mains are incapable of reproducing the 50 or 40hz or lower then they aren't hearing (or feeling for that matter) the entire soundtrack. Theres definitely a piece missing.
Of course redirecting the bass to the sub, will enable the listener to hear or feel bass he would not have normally felt had he not redirected it to a capable speaker. I agree wholehardedly with that.
However, the simple fact remains that I have heard JP DTS DVD on my set up and I have found that it is lacking bass when in fact it shouldn't be. At least in comparison to the JP Dolby Digital and DTS LaserDiscs. Now if both of those LaserDiscs are "incorrect" then that changes things entirely. I seriously doubt either LaserDisc was incorrectly mastered. It seems like the JP DTS DVD, or a batch of them are incorrectly mastered, or coded or whatever you want to call it. And I know for a fact it is not a HARDWARE problem.
I just think that maybe one should consider that maybe an error was made! Some people on here are posting that they have no problem with the bass. Some people are having a problem. Obviously the problem is going deeper then a hardware issue if people are checking and rechecking and calibrating and recalibrating their system and still not getting the proper results.
As far as the settings for bass distribution, my system can run either small or large. As stated before, my concern is this:
When I play JP Dolby Digital LaserDisc, the bass is incredible. When T-rex roars you hear and FEEL it. Its the same for my LW Dolby Digital LaserDisc.
When I play JP DTS DVD, that deep bass is gone. Yes there is some bass there but it doesnt affect you like the LaserDisc. Its just not as active or exciting or deep as would be expected. Again, when I listened to JP DTS LaserDisc a few months ago, the bass was absolutely stunning. From the opening drum beat to the Raptor snarling and growling at the worker to T-REX's roar, I felt that the DTS LaserDisc was heads and above my DD LaserDisc. I expected the DTS DVD to at least *MATCH* the DD LaserDisc. I expected nothing more and nothing less.
The Lost World DTS DVD I have no problem with. When T-Rex or T-rexes roar I can feel it! Both the Laser and DVD sound somewhat similar in flavor.
Eric.

 

[WilliamC]

I agree with Rich on this one. Even with my speakers set to small There is barely if any change is the bass. I am expecting to much? No. i know I'm not gonna get TPM type bass from this flick I never expected that but I do expect BASS where it is due. When the T-rexis walking/runnign whatever you wanna call there is NO BASS or VERY LITTLE BASS. Out of my 100 DVDs this is the only one that I am dissatisfied with the sound and know that they screwed it up somehow. I will compare the DD version this weekend and if there is no statement from dts or Universal on this with a resolution then the dts WILL be going back for the DD version.

 

[Howard S]

When I first set up my system, I found that if I set my speakers to SMALL, and re-routed their bass to the LFE channel, the overall soundtrack on certain disks became too bass heavy. However, by using LARGE, the opposite was true.
To compensate, I left the setting at SMALL, but reduced the relative volume of the sub. However, although this evened up the sound, I lost any additional impact that the additional headroom from the true LFE should have been giving me - it was just too quiet in comparison with the main speakers.
My amp couldn't vary the ratio of bass being re-routed from my main speakers to the true LFE, so I purchased a sub with two inputs (and two independent input controls) - one a line input and the other a speaker level input. I hooked up my amps speaker outputs to the speaker level input and set that for a seamless crossover between my main speakers and the sub. The LFE output from my amp was hooked up to the line input on the sub and adjusted to give me that boost of bass I was expecting. I set my amp's speaker setting to LARGE.
However, I'm still not happy - my opinion (and a humble one at that) is that a high proportion of DVD soundtracks mis-use the LFE channel and pass all sorts into it - even dialogue.
I don't know whether soundtracks are being re-mixed in this way specifically for the home market (similar to placing L&R channel dialogue into the centre channel), but I wish the powers that be would limit the use of the LFE channel so that it carries with it the element of surprise - i.e. use it only when that additional headroom is required e.g. for really deep bass, bass which should be felt as well as heard.
Could it be that JP DTS got it right, for once?

 

[Chris Rein]

I wonder if people should post what receiver and/or speaker arrangement they are using. I know that on the Yammies (and I am sure on all other receivers) you have the option to direct the LFE to the mains, sub or both (I figured "both" would be acceptable for towers and a sub). Along with these options, you have 3 other options to "manage" your bass.
1) On Yammies, you can calibrate the "Subwoofer" level along with all of the other channels (should be done with AVIA or VE) and that's one setting.
2) Dolby Digital has an option to increase/decrease the sub level. I have mine set to the default of 0. It can go down to -20, but NOT above 0.
3) DTS LFE Setting - The default is set at 0, and can go to -10 or positive 10. This part has ALWAYS confused the hell out of me. If Dolby Digital is at 0 out of a total of 20, and DTS is 0 at a total of 20, wouldn't DTS be set at +10 to "match" the Dolby Digital level? If not, then should Dolby Digital be set at -10 to match DTS? Hmmm. Interesting.
I wonder if people don't have their LFE for DTS set to the correct level, thus the "huge" differences between Dolby Digital and DTS? Just a thought. I figured I would thow that option into the mix.
Oh, and if anyone can shed some light on the above LFE levels, please let me know!!!
Chris

 

[Rob L]

On a somewhat different note, I read the intial post at that DVDfile thread and I think it is BS. I think the guy is just pulling peoples' chains. I would give reasons why but this is probably ot the place for it.

 

[Timmy]

On my lunch break, couldn't read all the posts, sorry if this has allready been said:

It has been suggested (but not confirmed) that the master Universal used for the JP/LW DVDs was mixed with some of the LFE mixed into the left/right main channels to improve the 2-channel downmix.

There is truth to this, although it may not have much to do with this specific disk; but the 2 channel downmix done inside the DVD player does indeed throw away the LFE track not including it in the downmix. That is why recording engineers "should" always throw a little LFE audio into the main channels.

 

[Max Leung]

Well, before someone decides to close this thread, I'd like a crack at summarizing the possible problems and solutions:

1. The JP DTS DVD is misencoded to have severely weakened bass/weak surrounds. Solution: Wait for a fix, or get the DD version.
2. The JP DTS DVD is fine. Solution: The bass is mixed into the mains and center speakers, so you need to set them to SMALL mode in your receiver to properly redirect them to your subwoofer if your speakers cannot handle the low (

 

[Carlo_M]

On a somewhat different note, I read the intial post at that DVDfile thread and I think it is BS. I think the guy is just pulling peoples' chains.

Oh phoooey! If you can't trust Tyler Durden, who can you trust?

For those who don't know, the guy posting on DVDfile is posting under the name of a character from Fight Club. How trustworthy is that?

 

[Rob L]

Oh phoooey! If you can't trust Tyler Durden, who can you trust?

Oh yeah! I forgot..."In Tyler we trust"
hehe

 

[Jerry Gracia]

"In dts we trust"

------------------
LuvLBX
HateP&S!

 

[Mike_G]

Ok, I'm confused. Robert, you said:
"It has been suggested (but not confirmed) that the master Universal used for the JP/LW DVDs was mixed with some of the LFE mixed into the left/right main channels to improve the 2-channel downmix."
This makes no sense. DTS DVDs have two SEPARATE tracks - DD 2.0 and DTS 5.1. Why would they have a version to improve a 2-channel downmix when DTS doesn't downmix to DD 2.0 in the first place?! People aren't complaining about LW.
Also, setting speakers to "small" is bugging me. I'm having a hard time believing that doing this magically fixed some people's problems when it didn't help others. There are a lot of smart people on this forum and I can't believe that after the Speed and Tarzan issues with 5.0 only sound that now this is coming up.
I don't have the DTS version of JP on DVD simply because the reviews said that the DTS version was the same if not worse than the DD version and I really wanted the DD version's extras (which I now find to be lame). Now I see why that might be. How can I trust anyone's opinions of the DTS version? If I go buy it after work and there's no bass with my setup, there's SOMETHING wrong with it. The problem is that I'm not about to drop another $20 for it only to be disappointed. Also, if this is the way things were supposed to be done, why is Lost World different? People aren't complaining about that.
There's something fishy here. You don't get this amount of traffic about one title when things are right. I believe that it is possible that in fact the bass might be mixed into the mains, but I'm scratching my head over people with "large" speakers that are still having problems. I'd love to try this for myself. Maybe I'll plunk down the $20 for the sake of my own sanity
Mike
Lexicon DC-1
Kenwood MX-1 amp
Panasonic A-110 DVD player (use this for DVDs)
Pioneer DVL-700 LD/DVD player (use this for LDs)
Definitive Tech L/C/R BP 2004TL (I think, maybe 2002)
Definitive Tech Sides BP2X (?)
Boston Acoustic THX 555 L/C/R rears
Definitive Tech rear sub
Lexicon set to "large" for all speakers, tested with 5.0 titles like Speed and Tarzan.

 

[Mark McLeod]

To get the maximum enjoyment out of it. What settings should I change on my Sony amp (DE 945)
Change the front speakers size to small
Change the bass going to the mains to what? I changed it from 250khz or hz to 200 and already noticed a big difference. My main speakers are DIY, they sound pretty good. Overall my fronts and rear speakers are the lacking end of my hometheater. My Center channel is a Klipsch SC-1 and my sub is a reference level Klipsch. Details on them can be found at www.klipsch.com
I'm thinking of watching the full movie tonight in DTS and want to have the best sound I can..
Anything I'm missing?
Mark McLeod

 

[Rob L]

Mark,
I thnk you'll want to decrease that level for the mains. 200Hz seems high. Plus, if your sub cuts off at say 125Hz then you're going to miss out on the bass between those frequencies.
Is that right people?

 

[TimF]

Pardon my ignorance but, why do we need "Bass Management"???
The lakes and streams near my house are full of bass. Large mouth and small mouth bass are in an abundance. These critters multiply like rabbits and, using the right lour, can be caught and fried for some good eat'ens. Ya ever had deep fried bass... ummmmm ummmmm good.
I for one don't think we need to manage them. Maybe in a few years when supplies dwindle, we will have to restock our lakes and streams… but now… I don't think so.
Just my 2 cents