I have two words for you...Bass Management UPDATED! (1 Viewer)

[Mark McLeod]

Yep, It will never end, no one is ever satisfied. Look we get the Ultimate T2 and people complain for days about small problems they have. So far I've been lucky, any problems I've had, I've been able to fix. Sure there could be more low end to the DTS JP DVD. There could be more low end to any movie. Sure we don't want to change our settings, but doing this does fix the problems some people are having.
Nothing is perfect, nothing will ever be perfect. There will always be arguments and disagreements. We now have a classic title on DVD and in DTS nonetheless. Imagine if there was no DTS edition then people would really be complaining.
DTS, DD both sound extremely good to me, and I'm glad to have them both as part of my collection. Remember Jurassic Park was the first DTS title, maybe people expect more from it because of this, I don't know. I'm too young to have Laserdisc and my home theater is not the best by a long shot. I cant' compare the LD vs the DVD. But I can say, I was happy with what I got. It sounded good before the tweaks and it's way better after the tweaks. Do I wish I didn't have to tweak it. Yes. Am I going to complain because I had to tweak it?, Not really. I'm just glad I'm a part of a group of people who know more then me and can help others get things to sound better.
So once again, I thank Obi and everyone for their input. Now I think we should all just stop complaining and watch the damn movie.

 

[David Judah]

Dan Hitchman,
The reason, I assume, is time. And as the old adage goes, time is money.
Initially, I was concerned about it too until I started thinking about it a bit. Actually, most of us are doing the same thing anyways on all of our DTS titles by using the bass management in our receivers or controllers. I imagine very few of us are running a setup as DTS recommends (5 full range speakers and a dedicated sub) with no post processing.
Of course, it could be argued that some equipment would more accurately relay signals (better bass management) to match the overall intended bass level--maybe to the degree that the difference would show up on a meter, but I question if the difference could be distinguished by the ear alone.
DJ

 

[Vince Maskeeper]

Quote:

Completely false. This method of mixing is NOT AT ALL "incorrect", in fact- one could easily argue that any dvd placing undue amounts of bass in the LFE channel when not necessary is WRONG. There is nothing native to the LFE channel making it more able to handle bass information-- it serves a specific purpose (10db headroom extension for freq under 120hz). All other bass routing issues should be executed on the user end, as Obi suggested, using bass management.
The LFE channel is not in any way specially suited to handle bass information any more than your main channels. Furthermore, a 30hz thud on the LFE channel routed to your sub sounds EXACTLY THE SAME as a 30hz thud in the left channel routed to your sub via bass management. The only difference is that YOU, the user, were given control over how that bass signal was routed based upon your specific system and specifications!
A 5.0 mix is identical to a 5.1 mix if the LFE channel is not used for the extra 10db headroom extension. The 5.1 mix simply dictates the crossover point for what is routed to your sub, while the 5.0 mix allows you to do so!
-Vince
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[Kieran Coghlan]

First of all, you all should be happy that you got your copy on release day! Buy.com didn't deliver on time for me.
Now to the point. Some of you seem to have a misunderstanding of the term LFE. I seem to remember a thread (big arguement resulting in one member leaving the htf) about LFE versus bass in the main channels. Anyway, don't forget that DD and DTS are 5.1 formats, which means 5 FULL RANGE channels, and 1 LFE channel. The 5 "full range" channels can, should, and in the case of JP, (apparently) do contain SERIOUS amounts of bass. The LFE channel is ONLY meant to AUGMENT the bass that is already in the 5 full range channels.

I wish the LFE was all directed to the LFE channel, but atleast I can redirect some of the bass that was getting sent to the main channels back to the LFE.

This is misleading. You are not redirecting anything "back to the LFE." You are redirecting bass that was MEANT for the main channels to your SUBWOOFER. The LFE channel is not "the subwoofer channel." In a system where the 5 main channels are NOT capable of truly low (20-30Hz) bass ALL speakers should be set to small. In such a system, if it is set up properly, the subwoofer really does "double-duty," meaning it plays the LFE information, AND the bass that was intended for the any of the 5 main channels.
The problem with many speaker systems these days that are used for DD and DTS, is that they can "almost" do full range playback. As Obi said, very few speakers out there are capable of true full range playback. People buy speakers that are "tower" speakers, and assume they should be set to "large" in their receiver's or processor's setup. You have to look at the actual rated output of the speaker. Many very fine, and very expensive "main" speakers are actually rated down to only 40 Hz or so (not a bad thing in and of itself). For music, this is usually fine. For HT, it is not so good. The reason it is not so good, is that most processors and/or receivers have bass management that uses a crossover of 80 or 90 Hz or thereabouts. So, many people set their main speakers (which only go down to about 40 Hz or so, for example) to "large" so as not to "waste" the speakers' range from 40 to 80 Hz. What ends up happening then, is that you loose anything that was sent to the mains and is below (in this example) 40 Hz! If you set the speakers to "small" in the first place, then while you may be "wasting" your speakers' capabilities, you at least can hear all of the movie's soundtrack.
What has happened, I think, in recent years with soundtrack mastering, is that sound engineers have chosen to use the LFE channel for most of the bass, and leave the main 5 channels fairly light on bass. That is why most other movies sound fine on your systems. JP however, was one of the first 5.1 digital soundtracks, and therefore was probably mastered and mixed more for a true theater speaker system than a home theater system. That means that the 5 main speakers were assumed to be true full range seakers and were utilized as such. And the LFE track was used as it was originally intended, which was to really just emphasize certain low-bass events in the movie, basically adding to bass that already existed in the 5 main channels.
For owners of Yamaha receivers and/or processors, I have another solution; an alternate to setting all your speakers to "small." (This may work for Denon, Sony, et. al, but I don't KNOW, because I've yet to try them out). Yamaha's have three settings for the where to send bass info that has been extracted from speaker set to "small": you can select "subwoofer," "main," or "both". In the "sub" setting, all the bass from "small" speakers goes to the sub. With the "main" setting all the bass from "small" speakers goes to the "main" (i.e. front L & R) speakers, assuming these were set to "large." With the "both" setting, the bass from any small speakers is sent to both the sub and the main front L&R speakers. In this way, you may get some doubling up of your bass frequencies, but at least you'll be sure you're not missing anything, and your nice "mains" aren't being "wasted." Another solution for some Sony owners, and some other processors, is the "flexible crossover" feature. Lucky for you, Sony realized that a set/fixed crossover is more trouble and frustration that simple solution. So, they allow you to choose your crossover setting (as should ALL processor/receiver manufacturers). This means that if you have speakers that only go down to 50 Hz (which is well below the 80/90 Hz crossover of most receivers, yet well above the 20 - 30 Hz extreme bass range) you can actually select 50 Hz as the crossover, so you won't loose anything, and your speakers use their full potential!
It's late, this is getting long, I'm rambling, and I'm tired.... hope I've helped a little. You might also try reading THIS .
Basically, even though I've yet to see the disc, I'm betting that Obi is right.
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-Kieran
My HT Page

 

[Kieran Coghlan]

Looks like Vince beat me to the punch! I hope that after reading Obi's, Vince's and my posts, people will start to understand what the problem REALLY is.
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-Kieran
My HT Page

 

[Ken Arnaez]

This reminds me of the issue with Disney's first Tarzan disc, which didn't even contain a LFE channel, it was 5.0 only. People were in an uproar over that because they felt, and still feel, that bass had to be encoded on the LFE channel, this is simply not true. There is nothing that says the recording engineers must use the LFE channel, they could have all the bass on the rear-left channel if they wanted to. Bottom line is if some of your speakers can't handle the full range with adequate power, then you shouldn't have them set to full-range/large. Maybe the good part about this "different" mix of JP DTS, is that some people will finally have to set up their systems properly. Then again maybe not, Disney in the end added a LFE channel to the second issue of Tarzan in order to appease the customer complaints, eventhough according to them there never was one in the theater track to begin with.

 

[Max Leung]

Yes, Vince, I (and many others who have had DVD players and digital receivers since its inception) understand the purpose of LFE.
But, I don't think it is a justification for the relatively poor performance of the DTS version of the JP DVD compared to all other versions (even Dolby Pro Logic VHS as another person has posted!) with respect to the bass.
I was hoping (and expecting) the JP DVD to have the same IMPACT as watching it in a real-life, bona fide, digital-sound-equipped, awe-inspiring, giant movie theatre. And I'm disappointed that the sound-mastering lacks this emotional punch...which is the very reason I have a home theatre and a DVD collection in the first place!
The bottom line is, who cares if the LFE is used properly or not...that isn't the point. The point is getting as much enjoyment from movies at home just as much as going to the googleplex. And if that involves tweaking the LFE track, then by all means, don't hold back!
I want to enjoy movies, and not be told by a Jack Black version of a sound engineer that "Your system sucks because you didn't spend $50,000 on new gear. You're stupid to expect Jurassic Park to sound good on that piece of junk you're using."
Many of us enjoyed Jurassic Park on the other formats immensely...and if the DVD (DTS and DD) versions of JP have the best and most accurate soundtrack available today, then so be it...those previous versions must be the "wrong" versions, and now we're hearing how it is supposed to be. Yet, somehow, I doubt that in this case. When the movie first came out, I remember when that Brachiosaur dropped to the earth...the theater shook and everyone in it was amazed. On my DTS DVD copy, my subwoofer yawned. And I have ALL bass redirected to the woofer. I know my settings are correct (tested with T2:UE, SPR DTS, Galaxy Quest DTS).
Does this mean all my other great-sounding DVDs have been mastered incorrectly? If that is true, why isn't there an uproar from the audiophiles that the DTS LD version of JP has too much bass and too much DB in the rear surrounds?
Double standard perhaps?
Oh well. Now I'm gonna forget about all of this, and enjoy my home theater.

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Max Leung

 

[Rich Stone]

Sorry guys, although I agree with some of the previous discussion about bass management (most folks don't understand enough about speaker settings and their affect on bass)I must say my peace. First let me preface this by saying, I have NEVER complained about ANY of the over 100 DVDs and LDs that I have collected over the last 10 years. On the contrary I have been pleased with the efforts of most studios. BUT.....
#1: My JP DTS DVD still sounds anemic even with all small speaker settings. Is this due to the fact that I don't have multiple super deluxe high quality subs? Probably to some extent. But when I can get better sound and significantly improved bass response/impact(without distortion) from both the Pro-logic and DD laserdiscs, something is amiss. I am VERY familiar with this soundtrack and the capability of my system to reproduce it and IMHO something is wrong with my copy or it was mastered in a way that my system is unable to take full advantage of. I can nearly crack windows with the pro-logic LD soundtrack while the DVD track hardly musters enough force to be felt no matter what the speaker settings.
#2: As mentioned earlier, why would Universal "optimize" it for two channel downmix when the vast majority of DVD users utilize six channel systems? Yes, I understand that 2.0 downmixes eliminate the bass from the .1 channel but how many folks listening with two channel systems are gonna miss it? I realize that there are some who utilize very high quality two channel audio for home theater but downmixes don't tend to sound that great in my experience anyway. These concerns don't even take into account that remixing some of the LFE channel into the other channels is not true to the orginal mix - not that alternative mixes have not been done before. Hardware issue or not, I'm sorry, it's (IMHO) just plain odd to remix in this manner (assuming that's what they did).
I'm still convinced that there is something wrong with my disc. Even if it is strictly a hardware issue, I'll be voting against this practice with my wallet - my copy is going back.
Regards,
Rich

 

[Mark McLeod]

Well said Kieran, and you quoted me and your correct in saying I'm wrong. I don't pretend to know anything much about speakers.
"I wish the LFE was all directed to the LFE channel, but atleast I can redirect some of the bass that was getting sent to the main channels back to the LFE." - Mark M
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"This is misleading. You are not redirecting anything "back to the LFE." You are redirecting bass that was MEANT for the main channels to your SUBWOOFER. The LFE channel is not "the subwoofer channel." - Kieran
--
Thanks for the insight. I can tell you right now that my fronts and rears are not high quality. The fronts I built in woodshop and the rears are from the late 80s. Should I be running these as Small speakers then on my Sony DE 945? Thanks for all the information

 

[David_ Alexander]

Hi
I read somewhere the Denon A/V receivers for instance carry this option called " enhanced bass management ": the mains receive the entire spectrum but their sub-80hz bass are also sent to the subwoofer output ( which receives the LFE too of course ). This setup allows at least the mains to handle the bass up to their capacity and if they can't go to 20hz ( most probably they can't of course ), it's of no importance since the sub receives also this 80hz to 20hz or more (depends on the high pass filter on the sub, usually from 18 to 30hz). It avoids the common "crossover gap" while allowing the mains to give great punch during those scenes carrying lots of info in the 40-60hz range.
One can also use an external high pass filter to cut them at 40hz ( if they are rated for 40hz to 20khz for instance ) to protect them.
If the processor or receiver carry separate, adjustable crossovers, the better of course (Lexicon, THeta, TAG, Sony)
It shows the limit of the THX 80hz only crossover.
Guys with the DENON : have you noticed a problem when choosing this enhanced bass feature in the menu set up? (Denon 3300/3301/3800/3801/5700/4800/5800 I think).
Regards

 

[Bill Lucas]

Mark,
I won't pretend to know the specs on your speakers (wo could, they're DIY) but it would be fairly safe to say that they should be set to small. Regards.
I think Vince, Kieran and Obi have hit the nail right on the head here. Many people seem to "think" that they have main speakers which can handle deep loud bass when in fact they do not. IMHO, nearly all speakers should be set to small and/or crossovers should be set to reasonable levels and not to the manufacturers specs. Let's face it, just because the manufacturer specs a speaker to 30hz or 40hz or whatever does not insure that there is useable LOUD output at that level.

 

[RobertR]

why isn't there an uproar from the audiophiles that the DTS LD version of JP has too much bass and too much DB in the rear surrounds

I'd venture to say it's because their concept of "great surround sound" means LOTS of bass and loud surrounds, so they like too much rather than too little (some people suspect DTS knew this and mixed accordingly).
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[Brian Perry]

As mentioned earlier, why would Universal "optimize" it for two channel downmix when the vast majority of DVD users utilize six channel systems?

It's the other way around -- while most people here on HTF are 5.1 users, the general public is not there yet.

 

[Iain Lambert]

What I don't get is that they would use the "optimized for DD 2.0 downconversion" master on the DTS version. No DVD player that I know of can downconvert DTS anyway.

Dan, two comments on this:
1) That would be very odd indeed, as there is a seperate DD 2.0 stream for both discs.
2) My player (Pioneer 525) claims to downconvert DTS to analogue stereo (and I believe PCM stereo as well). I hope it does - I haven't got a DTS amp. Or do you mean DTS 5.1 > DD 2.0? That would be unlikely, I admit.
As for the rest of this debate, I'll point to the fact that Speed is 5.0 - you'll have to go a fair way to find a more enveloping DD mix than that.
iain

 

[Mike Witt]

>>>#1: My JP DTS DVD still sounds anemic even with all small speaker settings. Is this due to the fact that I don't have multiple super deluxe high quality subs? Probably to some extent. But when I can get better sound and significantly improved bass response/impact(without distortion) from both the Pro-logic and DD laserdiscs, something is amiss. I am VERY familiar with this soundtrack and the capability of my system to reproduce it and IMHO something is wrong with my copy or it was mastered in a way that my system is unable to take full advantage of. I can nearly crack windows with the pro-logic LD soundtrack while the DVD track hardly musters enough force to be felt no matter what the speaker settings.

 

[Dan Brecher]

I'm not the most technical minded when it comes to these things, so throw me a bone here fellas. I get .1 from JP DTS DVD, it's there, I feel it, and I do not agree it is non-existent as many claim, and I also get a good amount of upfront bass. However the .1 LFE coming out my sub when I spin JP DTS LD is a lot stronger and deeper, so what, is it another case of it all being in the mix?
Lost World sounded fine to me. It was different to the DTS LD, bass seemed just a tad lighter, but neither disc bettered the other... Just wondering if I am simply experiencing a "different" experience with JP itself? Unless DTS make a press release stating an official problem with the DVD I am happy to play this disc, but still, my curiosity stands.
Thanks peeps,
Dan (UK)

 

[Rich Stone]

Brian,
You may be correct, but is "mastering for joe six-pack" what we want to promote???
All,
It sounds as if some folks here are condoning this mixing method almost as if they are defending Universals' decision. I see no reason why we can't convey our dissapointment to the studio in a constructive manner.
Earlier, someone mentioned the flack the original Tarzan release generated. Since Tarzan was a 5.0 track in the theaters it was properly represented on the DVD - I surely didn't complain about my copy since it was true to the way I heard it in the theater. This release of Jurassic Park IMHO is compromised for the vast majority of 5.1 systems without multiple high quality subwoofers and DOES NOT represent the manner in which it was presented in the theaters.
Based on my evaluation I still feel (hardware issues aside) that my copy is flawed and I will not pay my hard earned money for it. Nor will I support future DVDs that are mixed for the masses in this manner.
Regards,
Rich Stone

 

[Shane Martin]

Rich,
The masses out weigh us on this. We won't have any effect on them. I'll keep my laserdisc thank you very much!
I did buy the DTS dvd but haven't put it in the player to see if the 'anemic' bass is there.

 

[Robert George]

Based on my evaluation I still feel (hardware issues aside) that my copy is flawed and I will not pay my hard earned money for it. Nor will I support future DVDs that are mixed for the masses in this manner.

Rich:
It's your money. By all means, spend it as you see fit. However, it is equally important to point out that it is only your opinion that this disc is flawed.
Robert

 

[David_ Alexander]

Terry is currently measuring the bass out of JP DD DVD and we hope, will do other comparisons too.
The graphs are worth a lot of posts. Let's hope he does measure the DTS DD and the laserdiscs editions too.
This person should be thanked for doing those tests and help bring the light on the issue. So far, results are disappointing it seems.
There was a time when home theater fans did not need to have 3 subs to have room shaking demos.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/uub/...ML/027582.html