Apple TV+ For All Mankind (2019) - Season 4 (2 Viewers)

[Josh Steinberg]

Some degree of war would be likely.

I guess as a viewer I’m just burnt out on that. To a certain degree I subscribe to the thesis of the film “Tomorrowland,” that we bring on our own destruction and misfortune because we feed ourselves diets of media, storytelling and myth that tells us that war is inevitable, the only solution on the horizon, and the sheer repetition of that trope along with the unwillingness to put forth another kind of vision leaves us in a position where war is all we can imagine, which means that war is all we get.

I so desperately want both a fictional story and reality itself to try something different. Show people how to work together and that there is a benefit to doing so and we might actually give it a try.

 

[Sean Bryan]

I guess as a viewer I’m just burnt out on that. To a certain degree I subscribe to the thesis of the film “Tomorrowland,” that we bring on our own destruction and misfortune because we feed ourselves diets of media, storytelling and myth that tells us that war is inevitable, the only solution on the horizon, and the sheer repetition of that trope along with the unwillingness to put forth another kind of vision leaves us in a position where war is all we can imagine, which means that war is all we get.

I so desperately want both a fictional story and reality itself to try something different. Show people how to work together and that there is a benefit to doing so and we might actually give it a try.

Well, we have Star Trek for that. Something that I absolutely love and has had a significant influence on me since I was an early teen. Something that inspires me to hope that the future of humanity will finally some day get its shit together.

But through decades of living in this world, it has become clear to me that it is simply a wonderful fantasy. Unfortunately, that type of enlightened future is probably more unrealistic than the sci-fi aspects.

Don’t get me wrong, I still love Star Trek and continue to enjoy the new stuff and hope for more films.

But I also really appreciate future extrapolation science fiction stories that depict a more realistic take on “humans in space” which is “humans” in space.

 

[jayembee]

I don't have any particular tropism toward one direction or the other. One of the things that some of my favorite sf/fantasy series have in common is that they have one character (or more) who choose to do the right thing because it's the right thing, regardless of the personal consequences, and because it's a dirty job but somebody has to do it. Buffy Summers, John Sheridan, and John Crichton are the original trio I'd think of. James Holden, in The Expanse, is another.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

And this is why I keep trying to watch it, you guys make compelling points

 

[DaveF]

I definitely get what you're saying there, but I would argue that Ed's fear of his own aging and dying badly is at the root of all of those.

Yes, but it’s not fully in the show. We have to do some “head canon” to piece together what’s shown and what’s cut out / not written.

But it’s not a matter of storytelling that‘s not holding the viewers’ hands.

I think For All Mankind, among a few other shows, shows the limit of the modern 10-episode season. This season should be 13 to 15 episodes. They aren’t telling the stories of the characters adequately. There’s too much implicit plot, trying to tell huge stories of increasingly large stakes with a dozen main characters spread over half a dozen storylines and in only ten episodes, and skipping substantial on-screen actual dialog and action.

There is so much to do and only one episode remaining. I really wish for a couple more episodes to flesh out the gaps. I wanted the company town story. I wanted the tension between the civil servant NASA people and the money-grubbing contractors to blow up. I wanted to see Dani and Ed have the big fight, and the lingering consequences. All these threads promised in earlier episodes and seemingly forgotten by the writers.

And I realize writing this, fundamental to what’s lost this season: the emotion. Season 4 gutted the emotional core. Every emotional event promised in the first half of the season has been avoided or jumped past. There’s been no payoff. Maybe it’s all coming this week?

 

[Sean Bryan]

I don't have any particular tropism toward one direction or the other. One of the things that some of my favorite sf/fantasy series have in common is that they have one character (or more) who choose to do the right thing because it's the right thing, regardless of the personal consequences, and because it's a dirty job but somebody has to do it. Buffy Summers, John Sheridan, and John Crichton are the original trio I'd think of. James Holden, in The Expanse, is another.

I was thinking the exact thing earlier. Part of the appeal of the stories set in the imperfect worlds with imperfect, even corrupt, people or systems is rooting for characters who chose to do the right thing and rise above it trying to make things better.

 

[Walter Kittel]

I’ve tried multiple times to get into The Expanse and each time I’ve bailed during the first episode. It should be something that’s up my alley but what little I’ve seen of it struck me as being so dark and nihilistic that I just couldn’t continue. I guess I just don’t want to watch a show that uses space as a backdrop for more stories of war and violence when there’s possibility to use that setting for something so much greater than that. But it’s a show that’s loved by so many voices on this forum that I normally find myself sharing tastes with that I’m surprised I’ve had such difficulty with it.

You are missing out on one of the finest televised SF shows to ever air, my friend. Art is subjective, so no need to second guess your preferences I suppose. I will point out that violence is an indelible part of humanity and so it is quite logical to assume that it will spread to our exploration of the solar system. Hopefully, the species will eventually achieve a post scarcity type of society where a more civilized and humane society is the norm. (Star Trek anyone?) But it sure ain't the world we see in The Expanse. (Certainly not in Baltimore. Veiled reference to a certain someone.)

- Walter.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I made it through the first two episodes last night so that’s the furthest I’ve ever gotten.

 

[jayembee]

Hopefully, the species will eventually achieve a post scarcity type of society where a more civilized and humane society is the norm. (Star Trek anyone?) But it sure ain't the world we see in The Expanse. (Certainly not in Baltimore. Veiled reference to a certain someone.)

Hey, Amos gonna Amos...

 

[Greg.K]

Now that was a great season finale.

That sequence outside Ranger was just awesome (even with the dumb sci-fi trope of putting the override switch in the most inconvenient place possible outside the ship).

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Now that was a great season finale.

I found it a bit confounding, to be honest. We're basically being asked to root for the people committing international sabotage, because keeping the asteroid at Mars would keep the space program alive.

The progression by season so far has made logical sense:

1. Humanity colonizes the moon.
2. Humanity travels to the Mars.
3. Humanity colonizes Mars.
4. Humanity becomes a true two planet species.

But the flash forward to 2012, other than confirming that the saboteurs' gambit had the intended outcome, doesn't tell us anything about where humanity's ventures out into space are headed next.

I found the resolution of Margo's story moving and effective. She finally took responsibility for her actions, while ensuring that her life's work would continue after her. Seeing herself in Wernher von Braun, and recognizing the parallels between her choices and his moral and ethical lapses, was a nice way to bring things full circle.

We don't see what happens to Ed in the aftermath, but I can't imagine that the ringleader of treason on such vast scale would be allowed to continue business as usual. Dev has his wealth and his lawyers to protect him. Ed does not.

Miles is also probably finished after leading the assault on the soldiers that resulted in Dani getting shot. But efforts to prosecute him and his wife for their criminal enterprise will be complicated by the fact that an agent of the US government used torture on him. I wouldn't be surprised if he was offered hush money to just go away.

Sam is almost certainly going to prison, because they'll have plenty of evidence with which to convict her.

I was glad that Dani survived the gunshot wound and made it home to Earth and her new grandbaby. She was too good for the quagmire she inherited.

Ed is ultimately responsible for Dani getting shot, even though he wasn't the one who pulled the trigger. I do think that the assault on the soldiers breaking into the North Korean module was shocking to him, who spent most of his adult life in the military. That the powder keg he ignited would cause such a mess after it exploded probably never even occurred to him. I was glad that his concern for Dani's well-being overrode his anger and resentment toward her. But I couldn't help but think that he was probably the last person she wanted at her side as she was fighting for her life.

That sequence outside Ranger was just awesome (even with the dumb sci-fi trope of putting the override switch in the most inconvenient place possible outside the ship).

I did wonder about the physics of being that close to the rockets with only the insulation of the spacesuit to protect you. Even with the vacuum of space, I would think that the radiant heat would roast you.

 

[DaveF]

A superb finale for Season 4.

I didn’t get everything I wanted this season, and found it frustrating in the latter third. But that ending is nearly everything I want from For All Mankind. I hope there’s more to come!

 

[DaveF]

It's funny that there are any number of on-line articles about For All Mankind refer to it as something of (ie. not literally) a prequel to The Expanse. It always struck me as trying to up the reputation of FAM by linking it to that well-received show. But as Season 4 has gone on, I can see that description sort-of playing out, intentionally or not. In the backstory of The Expanse, Mars was a straight-out colony of Earth's, but eventually broke away to become an independent planet, whose relationship with the mother world wasn't especially amicable. That's what it seems like is the future in this series.

I’ve felt that way a bit, going back to the first season. But more in terms of The Expanse being pretty realistic hard-ish scifi extrapolating to a near-ish future. And For All Mankind is telling an even nearer term, alt-history that gets to space somewhat on the timeline that Expanse needs.

I’ve tried multiple times to get into The Expanse and each time I’ve bailed during the first episode. It should be something that’s up my alley but what little I’ve seen of it struck me as being so dark and nihilistic that I just couldn’t continue. I guess I just don’t want to watch a show that uses space as a backdrop for more stories of war and violence when there’s possibility to use that setting for something so much greater than that. But it’s a show that’s loved by so many voices on this forum that I normally find myself sharing tastes with that I’m surprised I’ve had such difficulty with it.

The Expanse is fundamentally hopeful. But it’s also realistic about human nature. And that’s a dark and nihilistic reality. But that makes for a great backdrop for people’s capacity for growth and change to be revealed.

 

[DaveF]

I was and reminded that For All Mankind is also a hopeful positive show at its core.

The past three episodes I’ve been waiting for the tug of war over Goldilocks to result in the asteroid being pushed into a collision with Earth or Mars. But that’s not what FAM is about. So it results in the best outcome of a perfectly stable orbit about Mars, to be mined. Now vast riches of Iridium will flow back to Earth, and we’ll all have free iPhone-powered flying electric cars by 2012.

 

[Walter Kittel]

Ed is ultimately responsible for Dani getting shot, even though he wasn't the one who pulled the trigger.

No he is not.

How about his co-ringleader, Dev? Is he responsible? He approached Ed and set the plan in motion; not the other way around.
How about the assholes from DOD that escalated the situation that caused the violence. Do they have any culpability?
How about the mob that descended upon said assholes from DOD and caused further escalation. Do they have any responsibility for what ensued?

The point is that it was a bad situation that had a number of contributing factors and the notion that any one individual bears ultimate responsibility simply ignores the complicated nature of the situation.

Ed has his faults, but his contributions to the violence are actually minimal, compared to those who you know actually committed torture and chaotic disorder.


Having said all that, I am very happy with Dani's final scene in the season finale. She is very deserving of any happiness she experiences.

- Walter.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

How about his co-ringleader, Dev? Is he responsible? He approached Ed and set the plan in motion; not the other way around.

Dev absolutely bears his share of the responsibility, but Dani wasn't his friend and former CO.

How about the assholes from DOD that escalated the situation that caused the violence. Do they have any culpability?

They were executing lawful orders from their commander-in-chief given to ensure the success of a mission that was crucial to a national interest of immense strategic importance. Dev, Ed, and their co-conspirators sabotaged NASA and then fled to North Korea. There is no way the United States was going to let that slide without a response.

How about the mob that descended upon said assholes from DOD and caused further escalation. Do they have any responsibility for what ensued?

Sure, but their actions were the predictable result of months upon months of disrespect and exploitation, culminating in outright torture from shadowy figures in the US and Soviet intelligence apparatus. But I don't think he ever fully appreciated them or their discontentment going back to his time as XO. They weren't true believers in man's exploration of the cosmos, they were time card-punching drones.

The point is that it was a bad situation that had a number of contributing factors and the notion that any one individual bears ultimate responsibility simply ignores the complicated nature of the situation.

I wasn't trying to say that Ed bears sole responsibility, just that he is culpable in the attack on his friend (who he has not been a very good friend to lately).

Ed has his faults, but his contributions to the violence are actually minimal, compared to those who you know actually committed torture and chaotic disorder.

Dev and Ed undermined America's strategy to most efficiently utilize a resource of supreme economic importance. I don't support the use of torture under any circumstance, but nor do I find the actions of the US and Soviet governments especially over-the-top given what was at stake.

The showrunners have not ruled out bringing Ed back as a main character for a fifth season. I think that would be a mistake. He'd be in his early eighties in 2012, so it's not outside the realm of possibility. But between his extreme actions this season and the Parkinson-esque neurological symptoms he displaying, it doesn't seem very plausible.

Having said all that, I am very happy with Dani's final scene in the season finale. She is very deserving of any happiness she experiences.

On this we agree. It's also nice that characters can exit stage left without dying heroically or tragically. Sometimes people retire, or their circumstances change, or their priorities change.

 

[Walter Kittel]

They were executing lawful orders from their commander-in-chief given to ensure the success of a mission that was crucial to a national interest of immense strategic importance.

This may be true, but those individuals lost the mandate of 'lawful orders' when they resorted to torturing Miles. While it may be manipulative (by the show runners) to use torture to paint the DOD folks as the villains in the episode, it worked for me.

Dev and Ed undermined America's strategy to most efficiently utilize a resource of supreme economic importance.

As Margo observed "Progress is never free."

- Walter.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

This may be true, but those individuals lost the mandate of 'lawful orders' when they resorted to torturing Miles. While it may be manipulative (by the show runners) to use torture to paint the DOD folks as the villains in the episode, it worked for me.

I'm not 100 percent clear on this point, but my interpretation was that only the CIA asset (Mike Bishop) was complicit in the torture. The others had only gotten involved when the president, via SefDec, had given them their orders.

I definitely agree that the torture used on Miles would not fall within the bounds of lawful orders, even though Bishop was clearly comfortable operating within that gray area.

As Margo observed "Progress is never free."

This is true, but the difference is that Margo sacrificed herself for progress while Dev and Ed (and von Braun for that matter) sacrificed others. They clearly thought it was worth it, but they're going to have to live with the consequences of their choices.

 

[Josh Dial]

I think you are all ignoring the fact that Martian Law was declared:

 

[Sean Bryan]

Loved the finale