‘Do the Right Thing’ Discussion: Racist or About Racism? (2 Viewers)

[DaveGR]

When I say Mookie as a hero,,i dont nessacerily mean the people who are watching are susposed to view him as a hero,,(although Ive heard people say they thought he was) but instead,the locals,his neighborhood friends,they ralley behind him. I couldnt see anyone watching it viewing him as a hero,but Like I said ive heard that before,,but I didnt mean that,I meant as within the film.

 

[Tommy G]

Brook, I'd like to know where you get these stats from. My uncle was on LAPD for over 30 years. My father was a cop for 35 years. I think you are just flat out believing what media is telling you. I would be interested in finding out where these stats come from ie what source.

 

[Lew Crippen]

definition of racism that implies only whites can be racist against blacks and not vice versa. I've been arguing about this in political circles probably since before you were born. I can only say that I consider it to be a completely bullshit definition.

We are on the same page here, George. And as you wrote, I’ve probably been saing that since you were in diapers. Seriously, I don’t think that this is Lee’s position in this film (see above).

 

[Lew Crippen]

Well written, Brook. Even if your stat is a little sus. I believe in its concept however.

Maybe I missed the point, but I think Raheem's death would have been more devastating had he been introduced to us as a likeable character.

I think that we are shown a likable, even gentle side of Radio Raheem. Two instances off the top of my head: early on we see him tell the story of how ‘love’ overcomes ‘hate’ (and to be even more clear, the words are tattooed on his knuckles) and we are shown his boom box, volume contest with another group on the street, wherein he goes away the winner, but everyone is left smiling—they all know that this is just in fun.

 

[ChuckDeLa]

This is kind of rambling all over the place, hope it makes sense to someone:

Mookie did "the right thing" for HIM in that moment. That does not mean it would be the right thing for you or I or anyone else to do. It also does not mean that it was the right thing to do in a wider moral or spiritual sense. In that moment in time, Mookie did what he felt was the right thing to do.

What does that mean? By that definition, everyone is always "doing the right thing". I think you're mistaken here, perhaps giving Lee too much leeway (pardon the pun). No, I definitely think a more absolute, moral definition of "doing the right thing" is implied. In the commentary, Lee asks (I'm paraphrasing, don't recall the exact wording) "Did Mookie do the right thing? I think so." That doesn't jibe with what you're saying, unless I'm missing something.

I agree with most of the rest of your post, Brook. (though I didn't find any part of School Daze "amazing")

I think one of most brilliant strokes of Do The Right Thing is Lee's willingness to make a victim out of a rather unlikable character (Raheem), instead of a doe-eyed innocent child or someone of that ilk.

 

[ChuckDeLa]

Whoa, Brook deleted his post :frowning:

 

[Lew Crippen]

Hey Brook, put your post back. It was very good.

 

[Rex Bachmann]

Let me say right from the start that I don't have anything detailled to say about the movie Do the Right Thing! itself, because I've never seen more than varied, isolated scenes from it. However, I have heard Mr. Lee discuss it in filmed or televised interviews, and he pretty much says that his characters' views there are meant to reflect actual views that exist in the social environment that the films re-presents, and are not necessarily his views. If one wants to reject out of hand his word, then that is one's business, but . . . . .


Much of the discussion in this thread so far is, indeed, on semantics:

Lew Crippen wrote (post #1):

You need to make the further distinction between bigotry and racism, per se. Some of "these people" are, indeed, racially "bigoted", does that make them "racist", per se?

On the "semantical nitpicking", you might be interested to visit the semantic and sociopolitical gripes on the so-called "white trash".

 

[george kaplan]

You have. Every day.

Look, one of us (or both) are projecting our own feelings into others. Only you know what's in your head and your heart, but you seem to be saying that you have at least some racial or ethnic biases. Only I know what's in my head and heart and I know I don't. We can only judge others by their actions and words, but I've had long conversations with many other people and seen various actions, enough to know that there are a lot of racists in this world (I've been on the recieving end of racial epithets from whites, blacks, asians and hispanics), and a lot of people who aren't (most people I know).

This is one thing that neither of us is going to convince the other about, so I'll stop there.

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

George:

I strongly believe that most people don't [have racial and ethnic bias]

I have to disagree with you here. I think that most people have some sort of bias, the difference is how much they let that bias effect their decisions and behaviors. That is my experience, coming from a mixed heritage background and it has been echoed by all of my minority friends.

 

[Rex Bachmann]

It's good that you do, for yours is a dead-end argument in the face of scientifically studied reality. Your taking offense at Mr. Lee's film because you do not like the "mirror" that he attempts to bring to bear, however successfully, on the harsh social and cultural realities that beset us all is insufficient justification for rejecting it. It was obviously never meant to be a "crowd-pleaser" (whatever color that crowd bore).

 

[george kaplan]

Rex,

You can believe what you want, and define things however you want, but your arguments do not convince me.

You are defining racism the way you want to, but I (and I would submit many, many others) disagree with your definition. Hell, Rush Limbaugh thinks he can define what liberalism or feminism is, but he is wrong.

As far your certainty that I have racial and ethnic biases, I suppose you can think so, but you are 100% WRONG. Since you supposedly know more about what's in my head than I do, please enlighten me. What are some of my racial biases?

And leaving me aside for the moment, if these racial biases are so all encompassing, please give me some concrete examples of these commonly held biases.

Perhaps it's a matter of semantics again. I do believe that
"Blacks tend to have darker skin than whites"
"Mexicans have a higher probability of living in Mexico City than Vietnamese"

But I don't consider these to be 'racial biases'.

Also, let me ask you the following multiple choice question:

A group of white men kidnap a black man, because he is black, hang him from a tree and write racial epithets all over him

A group of black men kidnap a white man, because he is white, hang him from a tree and write racial epithets all over him

a) nobody here is a racist
b) the white men are racists, but the black men are not
c) the black men are racists, but the white men are not
d) both the black and white men are racist

Just curious.

 

[george kaplan]

Please think about the logic of this statement. You are assuming, I repeat assuming (something you do an awful lot of), that Spike Lee's 'mirror' is an accurate reflection of reality, and that therefore anyone who doesn't like what it shows must be upset with the mirror. But it's also possible (as in this case) that the mirror is NOT reflecting reality.

When I look in the mirror and see my balding head, I don't like what I see, but I don't deny the reality of what I see. But if I were to look in the mirror and see that I was suddenly 9 feet tall, I would question the mirror, and indeed further investigation would show it to be a funhouse mirror, not one accurately reflecting reality.

 

[Tommy G]

I have to say that this is a great discussion on a film that I wrote off as just being racist propaganda. I am one who also doesn't buy the argument that all people are racist. That completely downplays what true racism is (that is judging someone by the color of their skin, religious affiliation, etc.). I am kind of intrigued by the title of this thread and I would have to say that the film was both racist and about racism. Oh and Brook, please do put your post back. I didn't mean to offend by asking the question I did in the previous post, I just think that people have a tendency to automatically hate authority and policemen are definite representatives of that authority. Have I been hassled by cops before for no apparent reason? Yes. But most of them I know (and I know a lot of them being from the family I'm from and the neighborhood I live in is about 50% police families) are just trying to protect us and uphold the law and would risk their lives for people they have never even met.

 

[george kaplan]

I realize I may have gotten a bit hot under the collar. Racism is something I hate with a passion, and I sometimes debate the issue rather vigorously. In any case, I want to thank Lew for this thread, and thank everyone who's responded, and if I don't respond to any further posts it'll be because

a) I don't think any response would make a difference

b) I don't want to respond in anger

 

[Brook K]

I don't have the post to put back, I deleted it because after I wrote it I immediately put the film on and realized some of the things I was saying were inaccurate, particularly with regard to several of the characters like Buggin' Out, who is much more racially biased than I was remembering. Doesn't change my feelings for the film, but I think I went too far in justifying certain things vis-a-vis George's post, which in retrospect is pointless since I know I'm not going to change his mind about the movie.

And yes, my "statistics" have no actual proof, so I wanted to remove that as well. You were right to call me on it Tommy and I shouldn't have gone there. I do know that I opened the Metro section of yesterday's AJC to page 3 and saw the headline "Man Killed By Police" and that not two months ago the 4 black men were killed by police in Gwinnett County in 3 days, prompting suspensions with pay and a review of "deadly force" procedures. That's just 5 in a few months. Even being conservative, let's say only 5 men will be killed by police in the Atlanta area. Multiply that by the top 30 population centers in the US and you're at 150, again being conservative let's double that to account for all rural areas and smaller cities. There's 300 or pretty close to a daily occurence somewhere in the US.

I don't hate the police, military, authority, etc. I respect the sacrifices they make to protect us. (I used to give money to all those "sticker-on-your-car" police benefit groups before I found out they were a fraud) Often these shootings are entirely justified self-defense. But cases of accidents and less savory incidents do happen. The media don't invent them, they report them because that is their job. And after several times of hearing about accidents and bad cop situations, people who feel they are disenfranchised, powerless, and victimized are going to start feeling that even the completely justified situations are just another case of police killing a black man. Now does everyone feel like this? No of course not, but read some articles and interviews after one of these incidents occur and you'll find people that do think this.

Anyway, I'm pretty far off-topic here. I'll say that Chuck, you can't put Mookie in terms of being a rational friendly person in this situation. Rage took a hold, he wasn't thinking as a rational individual. Maybe 4 out of 5 times this happens and he just internalizes the pain again, but the time portrayed in the film is the one time it was too much and he snapped. I think the characterization and story presents this well. I like to think I'm a rational, nice and unfortunately shy person. But if I saw one of my best friends killed right in front of me, I honestly have no idea how I would react. Would I think about how my actions could harm my wife and kids or would I just lash out in some illogical, destructive way? I don't know and can't know unless I'm faced with that situation.

 

[Jun-Dai Bates]

Rarely though has someone tried to argue that it's scientifically proven.

He never said (or argued) that it is scientifically proven, or that anything about it is scientifically proven. He said that it is scientifically studied, and that is a certainty.

 

[Jun-Dai Bates]

As far your certainty that I have racial and ethnic biases, I suppose you can think so, but you are 100% WRONG. Since you supposedly know more about what's in my head than I do, please enlighten me. What are some of my racial biases?

I have a feeling that you know much about what's in your head. Nobody does. But you can be certain that some people know more about it than you do. From a physical perspective, a neurologist would, for example (as would an autopsist). From a psychological perspective, pyschologists, cultural anthropologists, and everyone in between would.

As far as your experience is concerned, however, no one will know that better than you. Unfortunately your experience is not the most valid means of judging what levels of racial prejudice you hold.

 

[Michael Reuben]

Folks, please keep the discussion focused on the film. It's been a good discussion so far, and it would be a shame if the thread had to be closed. Thanks!

M.

 

[george kaplan]

Well I have a Ph.D in psychology, so I guess I know more about the inner workings of my mind than I do.