Definitive Technology PowerField 1800 vs. Rythmik FV18 has subwoofer tech. changed all that much in 25years? (1 Viewer)

[JediFonger]

my basement space: 16' x 13' x 7' open unfinished basement no carpeting not even drywall, straight concrete with some wood framing all around.

currently i've got velodyne cht12

i've got an opportunity to buy a def. tec. pf1800 for $250 and assuming it actually works, that's a pretty nice deal vs. $2k for Rythmik FV18. please don't suggest any alternative brands. i've already done my brand researched, my heart's set on Rythmik. i've been saving up $ for that, but now i'm wondering if i will be satisfied with just a 18" sub even if it's from 1998?

has subwoofer tech. evolved THAT MUCH to where in 25 yrs it's going to give make me some cheese pizza and give me a foot massage or somn? like aren't all speakers pretty much the same even if it's decades old? speaker is a speaker is a speaker is it not? same with subs. has the basic physical principle changed or somn? i get the amp/guts are definitely different the newer products vs. the older ones. but in terms of subwoofer cones... isn't it all the same?

i think the resale value is still pretty good on the def tech pf1800 my goal is to just get it and if i'm happy enough with it... just keep it as my 'forever sub'. will i really get $2k worth of subwoofer by going with newer sub tech vs. older?

 

[Clinton McClure]

Subs have changed a lot since 1998. From my understanding, most of those changes are in enclosure design and amp design. I haven’t bought a new sub in almost 20 years but I’m sure @John Dirk , @JohnRice , or @DaveF can drop some sub wisdom on us.

 

[John Dirk]

i've got an opportunity to buy a def. tec. pf1800 for $250 and assuming it actually works, that's a pretty nice deal vs. $2k for Rythmik FV18

That's a huge assumption at the listed price.

like aren't all speakers pretty much the same even if it's decades old? speaker is a speaker is a speaker is it not? same with subs.

Respectfully, this statement is strange to the point of seeming sarcastic. Why would you even be a HTF member if you feel that way, but I digress. In the end it's always a matter of the levels of performance, convenience and aesthetics you seek vs the amount you are willing or able to spend.

 

[JediFonger]

Subs have changed a lot since 1998. From my understanding, most of those changes are in enclosure design and amp design. I haven’t bought a new sub in almost 20 years but I’m sure @John Dirk , @JohnRice , or @DaveF can drop some sub wisdom on us.

which one do you have now?

That's a huge assumption at the listed price.


Respectfully, this statement is strange to the point of seeming sarcastic. Why would you even be a HTF member if you feel that way, but I digress. In the end it's always a matter of the levels of performance, convenience and aesthetics you seek vs the amount you are willing or able to spend.

oh i been here lurker for a while .

while thats all true at some point you cant escape basic physics right?

the real question has sub tech evolved that much that a modern one will sound twice as good?

ps i will test sub before i take it home. thus far the pictures dont show any tears or damage to cones.

i’ve been really lucky with local yardsales. just landed a rb1080 works at $100 locally

 

[JohnRice]

which one do you have now?

John D, Dave F and I have all gotten new subs in the last 6-18 months. In order, they are dual SVS SB-4000, dual SVS SB-3000 and dual SVS SB-16 Ultra.

Sub tech has changed a LOT in 24 years. In particular, what is available has grown significantly. You can't buy something that doesn't exist.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

I'm not an expert or anything, but my educated guess is the biggest advances in speaker tech/design would be in the extreme highs and lows of the FR spectrum, especially the (extreme) lows, ie. sub-bass, me thinks... as that's always been the most difficult end of the spectrum AFAIK.

And I certainly wouldn't expect a 25-plus-yo 18" subwoofer to be as good as a new one. Even besides tech/design issues, mechanical devices do degrade over time and usage afterall (though not sure how exactly that applies to speakers, especially subs), particularly those placed under substantial stress, which may well be the case w/ such an 18" sub -- the amp may also need refreshing after 25-plus years of heavy-ish usage. Also, this sub only uses a 500W amp, which may be a tad wanting for its 18" woofer size -- that too may contribute to additional aging/wear of the amp and/or the woofer itself.

A quick google suggests (as I suspected) that it's a relatively "slow" sub and probably not that great for music playback, if that's important to you. IF you really only care about HT/movie playback usage, then maybe it's worth giving it a try at that bargain price... though it's probably a bit of a beast to move around (and might not really be worth it after factoring all the additional/less-obvious/side "costs" of trying it out in your own home).

Anyway, just don't expect anything particularly amazing, especially at such a bargain price, hehheh...

while thats all true at some point you cant escape basic physics right?

the real question has sub tech evolved that much that a modern one will sound twice as good?

Well, that probably depends on what "twice as good" actually means to you, haha... Usually very subjective...

I mean... if you want more objective, maybe @Dave Upton might reference how a modern $2K sub might have amp section that's at least 2x as good in at least some ways like damping factor -- that's just an off-the-top-of-my-head, somewhat-informed speculation anyway...

It probably couldn't hurt to at least give the old sub an audition before deciding, if that's convenient enough... but just make sure you've considered and factored all the potential downsides before committing (deeper) to buy it...

_Man_

 

[JediFonger]

i guess i’m comparing it against my current cht12 anything is better maybe i’m just gettin desperate

 

[Carlo_M]

Jedi, as someone who thought they were perfectly happy with some really great speakers I bought back in 2003 (MB Quart, did a shootout here in HTF about it!) let me tell you that I was pleasantly surprised at how far speaker design and performance have come. Like you, I previously thought "hey good speakers are gonna always be good". But my most recent auditioning of a bunch of speakers, culminating in the purchase of the Definitive Technology Demand series has proven to me that a lot of improvement has happened in the last 20 years.

Subs would also fall under that category. SVS started the ball rolling on high performing, reasonable cost subs back in the day when the S and V were still in the company. S is now out of the industry I believe, and V has moved on to his new Power Sound Audio company, who also make fantastic subs (I have one) but there have been other players over the years like Hsu, Rythmik (as you note) and Monoprice/Monolith. If I were in your shoes I'd just save up for a while longer and pull the trigger on the Rythmik. My one regret is not having heard their direct servo tech. I have Hsu and PSA and love them both. And both blew away an older, and admittedly smaller, sub I bought in the late 1990s.

 

[JediFonger]

Jedi, as someone who thought they were perfectly happy with some really great speakers I bought back in 2003 (MB Quart, did a shootout here in HTF about it!) let me tell you that I was pleasantly surprised at how far speaker design and performance have come. Like you, I previously thought "hey good speakers are gonna always be good". But my most recent auditioning of a bunch of speakers, culminating in the purchase of the Definitive Technology Demand series has proven to me that a lot of improvement has happened in the last 20 years.

Subs would also fall under that category. SVS started the ball rolling on high performing, reasonable cost subs back in the day when the S and V were still in the company. S is now out of the industry I believe, and V has moved on to his new Power Sound Audio company, who also make fantastic subs (I have one) but there have been other players over the years like Hsu, Rythmik (as you note) and Monoprice/Monolith. If I were in your shoes I'd just save up for a while longer and pull the trigger on the Rythmik. My one regret is not having heard their direct servo tech. I have Hsu and PSA and love them both. And both blew away an older, and admittedly smaller, sub I bought in the late 1990s.

thank you carlo! gotta keep that $ and keep saving! it’s just so hard to get to $2k

 

[Clinton McClure]

My sub is a 1st generation Paradigm Servo 15. I believe just about all of today’s SVS will outperform it.

 

[DaveF]

I don’t know anything about Rhythmik. Maybe they haven’t improved their designs at all in the past quarter century?

 

[DaveF]

15 years ago when I bought my first SVS, all they had was cyclinders. I’ve got a gigantic 12” cylinder in the living room that stands above the couch it’s behind.

Today, they’ve got small, sealed-box subs with larger woofers in smaller volumes that sit next to recliners and practically vanish from view. And they perform on par, maybe better, than that old sub, for same price.

They also have “quality of life” improvements: an app to control all parameters from your pocket computer, rather than reaching behind to twirl knobs in the shadows contorted behind furniture. And also for nominal price, you can get RF connectors to eliminate cable woes.

Again, I don’t know anything about Rhythmik, but other sub makers have have improved their products in performance and QoL over the decades.

 

[DaveF]

Personal budget is paramount. Getting a great sub from 15 years ago for $200 versus spending $2000 for the new iteration might be just perfect for you. A great sub from back then, if it is in good shape mechanically and electronically, should still sound great today. And could be worth the 10x savings if that’s what you care about.

I’d buy the $2000 new sub and not look back. But other people buy the $200 used sub and don’t look back. This is a really personal decision involving factors beyond just “home theater”.

 

[John Dirk]

I’d buy the $2000 new sub and not look back. But other people buy the $200 used sub and don’t look back. This is a really personal decision involving factors beyond just “home theater”.

I'm with Dave but I wasn't always at this point. It really depends on you personal situation, which only you know. I bought my first SVS sub around 2009 and it remained a great [overall] performer until I sold it for $300.00 last year. The guy buying it got a great deal for his present needs and I went with dual SVS SB4000's, which were perfect for mine.

 

[JediFonger]

my personal situation i'm good with either. i was more curious about if $250 will "get me there"... why am i spending $2k right?

but dammit it sounds like $2k is going to blow the shit out of nearly 25yrs of tech then hell yeah it's still worth saving up for. so i'll continue to save up and get my 'forever sub'

 

[Carlo_M]

It's going to be highly dependent, right? Like are you just about SPL levels and "wow" factor? In which case the $250 could get you there by nature of the size of the driver.

Or are you one of those who wants to get the "best sounding" bass in addition to the SPL increase? Meaning tight, fast response, and overall even levels from 20hz to 100hz (or whatever you choose to set the crossover point) with little to no dips and spikes? Ability to EQ? If you're after most/all of that, then I'd counsel to save up for the Rythmik.

 

[JediFonger]

It's going to be highly dependent, right? Like are you just about SPL levels and "wow" factor? In which case the $250 could get you there by nature of the size of the driver.

Or are you one of those who wants to get the "best sounding" bass in addition to the SPL increase? Meaning tight, fast response, and overall even levels from 20hz to 100hz (or whatever you choose to set the crossover point) with little to no dips and spikes? Ability to EQ? If you're after most/all of that, then I'd counsel to save up for the Rythmik.

i want my dental implant and my fillings to explode and the sound pressure make me throw up my breakfast but i will settle for under 20hz performance. currently my cht12 dies somewhere south of 40-60hz

 

[Carlo_M]

So the $250 should (assuming it's in functional order) do exactly that. And you can always lean on "if you don't know what you're missing, will you really miss it?"

The one thing that my Hsu does is let me really dial it in to the room so I can get that rumble down to 20hz (and below but I can't really hear it, but the SPL meter confirms it's happening). But the issue is, depending on your room setup, if you get the SPL you want at 20hz, without fine tuning EQ controls, it may result in peaks in the 60-100hz that are too loud. And I know Rythmik has similar controls. Nothing more satisfying than having the deepest bass without blowing out your eardrums in the upper bass registers.

 

[JediFonger]

So the $250 should (assuming it's in functional order) do exactly that. And you can always lean on "if you don't know what you're missing, will you really miss it?"

The one thing that my Hsu does is let me really dial it in to the room so I can get that rumble down to 20hz (and below but I can't really hear it, but the SPL meter confirms it's happening). But the issue is, depending on your room setup, if you get the SPL you want at 20hz, without fine tuning EQ controls, it may result in peaks in the 60-100hz that are too loud. And I know Rythmik has similar controls. Nothing more satisfying than having the deepest bass without blowing out your eardrums in the upper bass registers.

but i do know. i’ve heard enough of the current stuff vs older subs

 

[DaveF]

my personal situation i'm good with either. i was more curious about if $250 will "get me there"... why am i spending $2k right?

but dammit it sounds like $2k is going to blow the shit out of nearly 25yrs of tech then hell yeah it's still worth saving up for. so i'll continue to save up and get my 'forever sub'

I have no idea what sub you’re thinking of buying used. But if it was a 12” woofer (or larger) sub that sold for ~$1000 to $2000 a decade ago, has an integrated amp, and is still “like new”, then it’s going to be great. My SVS PC12 from 2009 is still superb.

Also…it’s only $250. Buy. Try it. Works as hoped, then awesome. Doesn’t work? Get rid of it and spend for a new sub.