CAMELOT - WARNER VID, YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED. (1 Viewer)

[Scott Merryfield]

Price. Ned Price. The man with yellow and orange on the brain. He is responsible for this abomination:

and several other WB releases just as bad.
It's a miracle THE AFRICAN QUEEN turned out as well as it did with Price overseeing the job.
Warner Brothers should have fired him after his first "restoration" of GONE WITH THE WIND.

They transferred it upside down, and backwards too?!

 

[Brandon Conway]

I love how five-six years ago The Searchers Blu-ray was praised and adored by this very forum, and now it's considered complete crap.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/240651/a-few-words-about-the-searchers-in-high-defintion

 

[David Weicker]

I love how five-six years ago The Searchers Blu-ray was praised and adored by this very forum, and now it's considered complete crap.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/240651/a-few-words-about-the-searchers-in-high-defintion

Actually, its the same person who labeled it a 'travesty' back then bringing it up now. Many others, myself included, enjoy The Searchers blu-ray.

 

[Richard--W]

Go back and read the posts and you'll see it wasn't praised and adored by me. I pointed out the corruption of the color then and I'm doing it now. And I'll do it tomorrow. People are beginning to catch on to Ned Price and his color blindness as a result of more and more offenses. For most people the give-away was the slight color correction of the GONE WITH THE WIND Blu-ray over the DVD's Price had been insisting were correct, when in fact they were light-years away from accurate. The Blu-ray gave people something to compare to. People are beginning to realize that "yellow layer failure" is not responsible for the flamboyant color changes in Ned Price's "restorations" when every film he does has the same flaws. That is done at the console with a click of the mouse. To arbitrarily and stubbornly shift the color pallette of THE SEARCHERS to yellow and orange is tantamount to watching the film upside down and reversed. And now he's done it again to CAMELOT.
I'm preparing a post, illustrated and annotated, that will document Ned Price's offenses.

 

[Brandon Conway]

Originally Posted by Richard--W /t/320441/camelot-warner-vid-you-should-be-ashamed#post_3922061
I'm preparing a post, illustrated and annotated, that will document Ned Price's offenses.

HANG 'EM!

I find it hard to consider it a travesty when you have varying accounts of what is correct. Some in this thread recall Camelot looking very much like the current Blu-ray, some don't. When that happens I find it hard to rally for the cause. More than anything it's the hyperbole that turns me off.

As for The Searchers, my recollection of those conversations is that those particular coloring issues were more a result of available materials than digital manipulation.

 

[GMpasqua]

Originally Posted by Richard--W /t/320441/camelot-warner-vid-you-should-be-ashamed#post_3922061
To arbitrarily and stubbornly shift the color pallette of THE SEARCHERS to yellow and orange is tantamount to watching the film upside down and reversed. And now he's done it again to CAMELOT.
I'm preparing a post, illustrated and annotated, that will document Ned Price's offenses.

Richard have you ever seen "Camelot" in a theater? "camelot" was shot in 35MM (My Fair Lady was 70MM) so they shouldn't look the same
During the 70's Camelot looked dark and dull, maybe the original roadshow presentation was different, but the DVD looked so good, but nothing like the film did in the theater

The only thing that looks different on the blu-ray than in the theater are the opening credits - they were sharp as a tack in the theater and on the blu-ray they appear soft and fuzzy - not quite sure why

 

[rsmithjr]

I am not familiar enough with Camelot to say what it "should" look and sound like.
However, I am sometimes tempted to believe that there is no such thing as the definitive version of a film even when people are trying to recreate the original experience. [Films like Star Wars that have been deliberately altered are a different matter that I am not interested in discussing.]
There are many films that I have seen in every incarnation starting with theatrical release. I often see and hear differences in the generations Some examples:
1. Vertigo: This is my favorite film. I have seen it many times during original release, reissue, TV, all video, all reissues, with different prints in different venues, including archive dye transfer prints in recent years. It is never exactly the same. My favorite version is the 1996 70mm restoration, which I have seen many times at the Castro in SF (certainly the most appropriate place to see the film). HOWEVER, it is different than the original dye-transfer prints. Most of the differences I approve of, some of them (the foley and color timing on the dark scenes) I have some issues with. But the point is that these 70mm prints are not the same as the original prints.
2. Lawrence: My second favorite. I saw this many times during original release at a number of 70mm roadshows around the country, could not get enough of it. While I have seen every other version to some degree, I pretty much refuse to see it if not in 70mm. The restoration prints are my favorite version. HOWEVER: the restoration color is significantly different than the original release prints. The colors are more saturated and distinct. The original prints had a light sepia look to them, which I certainly got used to 50 years ago, but now prefer the restoration color balance.
3. GWTW: I have seen every version since the 1954 dye-transfer prints, and all are different. The Blu-ray actually looks very similar to the 1961 reissue prints that were printed on Eastman color (with quite nice 4-track magnetic). While most people seem to prefer the 1954 prints, they now seem dull compared to the new Blu-ray. Again, the point is that they are different. [Some notable releases of GWTW: the 1968 70mm prints altered the aspect ratio, had muddy orange colors, but a nice stereo soundtrack. The 1989 release had pastel colors that were an attempt to mimic the original release prints. The 1998 Technicolor prints were insert-boxed and not very compelling color.]
4. Ben-hur: Again, I have seen them all. The 1969 70mm prints (which were 220 non-Ultra Panavision 70) were orangish IMHO. The new prints made in the late 90's were actually pastel colored. The new Blu-ray is dark, overly blue (certainly not brown!). The sound on all versions since 1969 has had most of the directional dialogue removed in favor of a centered soundtrack. My favorite color balance was the original 35mm dye-transfer prints, my favorite sound the original 70mm 6 track prints. Fortunately, I am able to adjust my system so that the Blu-ray comes very close to the color balance of dye transfer, and the sound recovers some directionality with rebalancing.
I could go on about this. I think you have to be objective and realize that there are going to be differences in different generations. Honest and thoughtful people, on both the production and consumer side, will disagree about these things.
I suggest that people do two things:
1. Try to be a bit more tolerant and understanding about the difficulties involved in this sort of thing.
2. Adjust your system to the degree that you can to get what you like.

 

[Brandon Conway]

I should note that I find the soundtrack concerns for Camelot more notable, but it makes me wonder if there is a specific technical/elements reason that may be the root cause for the differences that we are simply not privy to.

 

[haineshisway]

HANG 'EM!
I find it hard to consider it a travesty when you have varying accounts of what is correct. Some in this thread recall Camelot looking very much like the current Blu-ray, some don't. When that happens I find it hard to rally for the cause. More than anything it's the hyperbole that turns me off.
As for The Searchers, my recollection of those conversations is that those particular coloring issues were more a result of available materials than digital manipulation.

There was and is nothing wrong with the elements for The Searchers, and the bad color (and it is bad because it is wrong) was all done in the telecine room - a choice and a wrong one. Warners has a dye transfer print which they could have used for reference - they did not and they, at the time, admitted they had not.

 

[David Weicker]

However, I am sometimes tempted to believe that there is no such thing as the definitive version of a film even when people are trying to recreate the original experience.
I suggest that people do two things:
1. Try to be a bit more tolerant and understanding about the difficulties involved in this sort of thing.
2. Adjust your system to the degree that you can to get what you like.

Very well said (I agree with your entire post, but for brevity's sake I only quoted parts of it)
I think that if your goal is to recreate the theatrical experience, someone will always be disappointed, since theatrical showings vary.
Going forward, trying to define the 'definitive' version will become even more difficult. Once we entered the multiplex age, with automated projections and minimum wage projectionists, the idea of seeing the same movie (even during its initial run) and seeing it the same way is gone. We've all heard of theaters reducing the light output (in an effort to prolong bulb light), and different theaters have different ambient light, different screen material or color. And now that you throw in digital projection vs. film projection, 2D vs. 3D, what is the proper theatrical experience.
As Robert stated, even re-issues by the company were different (which happened long before the Home Video age and before many of the people responsible for the DVDs and Blu-Rays here being discussed). If my first viewing of a film was in a 1970's reissue, but it was different than the original 1950's version, then to me, the 1970's version is the 'right' one.
David

 

[GMpasqua]

I have seen the same print of certain older films (which have been passed around to certain LA theaters) look different in each theater!
Of all the films I have seen more than 5 times in a theater (there aren't many) they each looked different. Of course video will always look different than film in a theater.

I must say I have been satisfied with most of the blu-ray transfers I have seen - there are just a few exceptions (The Greatest Story Ever Told & My Fair Lady) Other exceptions are films with excessive DNR (Patton)
But of the 200+ films I own on Blu-ray maybe only 3 or 4 have been disappointing

 

[Joe Caps]

Sorry, but there is NO reason to be tolerant, just because some idiot at Warners thinks that remixing is tantamount to restoration. It aint.
restore FROM what TO what?
Sorry, originals still exist. After having seen camelot on the screen over 176 times, the regular dvd looks most like the film. the blu is a travesty.
Further, for years Camnelot was on tv in 16mm prints and even THOSE had the correct soundtrack. Ned Price, enough of you !!!!

 

[Brandon Conway]

Originally Posted by haineshisway /t/320441/camelot-warner-vid-you-should-be-ashamed#post_3922081
There was and is nothing wrong with the elements for The Searchers, and the bad color (and it is bad because it is wrong) was all done in the telecine room - a choice and a wrong one. Warners has a dye transfer print which they could have used for reference - they did not and they, at the time, admitted they had not.

Sorry, but this absolutely contradicts the Robert Harris / Ned Price interview. It's not as simple as you lay out, and they explain why. http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/robertharris/harris082106.html

If you think they did it out of maliciousness or because they wanted to mess with 2-3 enthusiasts, well, I can't help you there.

 

[haineshisway]

Sorry, but this absolutely contradicts the Robert Harris / Ned Price interview. It's not as simple as you lay out, and they explain why. http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/robertharris/harris082106.html
If you think they did it out of maliciousness or because they wanted to mess with 2-3 enthusiasts, well, I can't help you there.

That interview was given at the height of the controversy and is complete spin, I'm afraid. If you're happy with a Blu-ray that has color that is completely not what the filmmakers intended, well, I can't help you there. The laserdisc release of The Searchers had color much closer to the IB Tech prints - why? Because the people who did THAT transfer looked at the reference print.

 

[Brandon Conway]

Originally Posted by haineshisway /t/320441/camelot-warner-vid-you-should-be-ashamed/30#post_3922124
That interview was given at the height of the controversy and is complete spin, I'm afraid. If you're happy with a Blu-ray that has color that is completely not what the filmmakers intended, well, I can't help you there. The laserdisc release of The Searchers had color much closer to the IB Tech prints - why? Because the people who did THAT transfer looked at the reference print.

I actually don't like The Searchers enough as a film to own it, and I've never seen Camelot.

So, you're basically saying Ned Price is a bald-faced liar, and that Robert Harris was a fool for believing him. Gotcha. Remind me to ignore these threads from now on....

 

[Matt Hough]

I think North by Northwewst on Blu-ray looks beautiful. I think it's among the best HD transfers in my collection.

 

[haineshisway]

I actually don't like The Searchers enough as a film to own it, and I've never seen Camelot.
So, you're basically saying Ned Price is a bald-faced liar, and that Robert Harris was a fool for believing him. Gotcha. Remind me to ignore these threads from now on....

I don't think about Ned Price at all. I only know what my eyes tell me and since I have owned both 35mm and 16mm dye transfer prints, I know exactly what this film looks like. This is a hotbed topic, but I have to say that Mr. Harris, with whom I've discussed this transfer many times, repeatedly says in that thread you linked to that the color is not right. It's very simple to know just how off the color is the minute you put on the disc - the bricks have never been yellow in the title sequence - never, ever. And that yellow affects everything else. I think people were ecstatic back then due completely to the astonishing sharpness of the transfer - that has never been in question. Any of us who have a problem with the color have been very specific about what those problems are. And I will also say in the six years since that thread, many people who initially raved have come around to see that the color is not right. It could have been right. That's the bottom line. The off color has nothing to do with the elements.
You know, I made the initial stink about this when the DVD was released. I was castigated everywhere for it, but you know who agreed with me - Robert A. Harris. Since the HD-DVD and then Blu-ray used that transfer, the problem remains. The interesting thing is that some folks at Warners admitted privately that no one had checked the reference print - had they done so, and had they used it's color balance, we would have ended up with something truly incredible. There are many threads about this, especially when the DVD came out.

 

[rsmithjr]

I don't think about Ned Price at all. I only know what my eyes tell me and since I have owned both 35mm and 16mm dye transfer prints, I know exactly what this film looks like. This is a hotbed topic, but I have to say that Mr. Harris, with whom I've discussed this transfer many times, repeatedly says in that thread you linked to that the color is not right. It's very simple to know just how off the color is the minute you put on the disc - the bricks have never been yellow in the title sequence - never, ever. And that yellow affects everything else. I think people were ecstatic back then due completely to the astonishing sharpness of the transfer - that has never been in question. Any of us who have a problem with the color have been very specific about what those problems are. And I will also say in the six years since that thread, many people who initially raved have come around to see that the color is not right. It could have been right. That's the bottom line. The off color has nothing to do with the elements.
You know, I made the initial stink about this when the DVD was released. I was castigated everywhere for it, but you know who agreed with me - Robert A. Harris. Since the HD-DVD and then Blu-ray used that transfer, the problem remains. The interesting thing is that some folks at Warners admitted privately that no one had checked the reference print - had they done so, and had they used it's color balance, we would have ended up with something truly incredible. There are many threads about this, especially when the DVD came out.

I am sure that you know this film better than I do, I never saw a dye-transfer print of it, and all my viewing experiences are with LD or Blu-ray.
I believe you.
A question: have to tried to restore the color balance by adjusting your display? I ask because I often find it necessary/convenient to do so.
Projectionists (when there were such things) often went to great pains to get the film exhibited correctly, so to me, making dynamic adjustments is a part of the overall process.

 

[rsmithjr]

I think North by Northwewst on Blu-ray looks beautiful. I think it's among the best HD transfers in my collection.

This film demonstrates a point that I am trying to make.
To me, the Blu-ray is very nice in most respects, but the color balance is a bit on the blue side. I saw the film during initial release in Radio City Music Hall and other venues at that time, as well as many times since, including archive dye transfer and new prints from Warners that were supposedly well made.
Thankfully, I can adjust it easily to what I want to see on my projector.
Bob

 

[Brandon Conway]

Bruce - I don't think the coloring being off was in dispute but rather the means to correct it without causing worse problems to other aspects of the color. Are you saying those claims are false and that Mr. Harris, while accepting that reasoning in that interview, has since retracted from that position? Because everything I've read is that he still endorses that release of The Searchers.
As for Camelot - we have varying recollections on this thread alone about the coloring. Hard to fault Warner in my view.