Brand Advocacy (1 Viewer)

[Philip Hamm]

I wasn't trying to diss Kawasaki bikes, I'm gnna get one when the snowq finally melts (Vulcan 800 baby).

I test rode the beautiful Vulcan 800 once, and it was a pleasure (and a surprise). I have a picture from the K website of the 800 Drifter on my desktop right now. One of the most beautiful bikes currently being produced IMO. The 800 Vulcan with it's hardtail look rear end and small size most closely resembles the bikes of the 50s and 40s. There have been some very cool chopper concepts made from this platform that I've read about in the national moto rags.

Also, to get back on topic, brand advocacy can go the other way as well, to unwarranted brand bashing. Some people pick certain brands and bash the heck out of them. I remember very early in the DVD days there used to be quite a rift between the Sony and Toshiba "camps". One group would swear that Sonys were better and Toshiba was junk, and vice versa. It was distracting and didn't do any good for either brand.

 

[Romar Armas]

This "Brand Advocacy" has really turned me off from replying to threads asking for Brand opinions. There's always one person that ends up bashing everyone and fights to the death. This happens no matter what you talk about. HT, Cars, Video games, etc.

I enjoy video games a lot but the level of "fanboy-ism" is just way out there. People are too narrow minded and not open to any other opinion.

However, there are some people who like to argue for the sake of arguing. No matter what you say, they will always have a counter even if it contradicted their previous statements. This I have also seen happen quite a bit on these forums. These are the type of people who start arguements that have nothing to do with the actual thread and warp them to totally something different. Once I see a thread like this I immediately quit reading even if the original topic was of interest to me. This is definitely not a good thing.

What also a lot of people don't understand is that if they have a good experience with a product, it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone else will have the same experience. So being fanatical about a product based you your good experience may not be that great as it can come back to you if anyone who takes your advice ends up feeling let down.

 

[John-Miles]

Now this is a reason to buy a tv if i ever heard one

By the way, Toshiba blows all other HDTVs away and can even improve one's sex life.

but i think some empirical data is in order Jack

 

[Jack Briggs]

Sorry...



Maybe not, but he sure would have been able to go faster! (And in that year the choice would have been the Kawasaki H-1 "Mach III 500."

Our regularly scheduled program may now resume.

 

[Shane Martin]

or worse yet, the tweaks

This is rather good thread i think. It's pretty rational too w/o finger pointing though if you visit HTF often you can figure it out rather fast The brand loyalty thing will bounce around every year that something new and hip will come out. The bandwagoners as I will put them tend to bounce like this. It's almost obvious. This happens in sports too

The tweaks thing is the absolute worst. This subject will never ever get fixed. Both sides will always disagree and whats odd is the opinion is almost 99% of the not warranted/needed. They didn't ask yet the can of worms was opened by the skeptic. The non skeptics usually say "try this brand, Good imho, while the skeptics want to point out a dbt that they didn't participate in and shove it down your throat. Look if you want to do that, do it when they ask or start your own "why tweaks are a scam to me" thread and go on.

 

[Chu Gai]

well i really don't want to open the can of worms Shane, but for myself, I'm rather fond of a rigorous, scientific approach to things. I'm also aware of people, in part, objecting to that, perhaps because they've got issues with science in general. For some, it's because they think science abandons it's creations...Mary Shelley's Frankenstein comes to mind. I'm all for experimenting...even tweaking if you will but I take a mighty hard look when even a cursory examination of the underpinnings can't be found. We as a society don't move forward by embracing fuzzy math.

 

[Shane Martin]

perhaps because they've got issues with science in general.

I personally as I know alot of folks personally don't have a problem with science. I just appreciate personal experience with said product rather than "don't use them, they are a ripoff because I can find a dbt to support my claim". If they thread starter said "is there any scientific proof to counter xyz audio's claim that it will improve my soundstage", then by all means go ahead but 99% of the time you won't see that post It's thrown in and then the subject is derailed quickly :frowning:

 

[Chu Gai]

personal experience is good for sure. i like it with respect to hearing about people's experiences with manufacturers, issues with a particular piece of equipment, service experiences. I don't go much beyond that.

 

[ManojM]

This definitely has been an interesting thread, especially at the beginning. For all of the people out there who really love a particular brand, it is important to remember that gear has gotten so good that there is little that is truly bad. For example, it is the rare television indeed that I couldn't happily live with, and I probably could be happy with any one of four or five different pre/pros. Chu, I agree with you that hearing about situations where a manufacturer stepped up and went the extra mile concerning a problem or issue is very useful.

 

[JohnnyA]

ahh... the play from left field is a good one. yes, it irritates me most when someone requests for opinion on a certain list of items, and then someone chimes in and deviates from the list with another item without any appropriate or significant info to back up that recommendation.

 

[Chu Gai]

even someone for whom Bose, yes Bose, is their speaker of choice deserves consideration when looking for assistance.
myself, i'm going to end my participation in this thread with a quote from Winston Churchill i'm particularly fond of...

"My dear boy," he said, "if Hitler were to invade Hell, I would at least make a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons!"

Dunno what it has to do with this thread, but it made me feel good saying it

 

[Dan Lindley]

I wonder if it is true that only in the top 10% of the hardware range do differences become apparent. I would bet that on a dollar for dollar basis (ie not percent of amount spent on one thing compared to a competitor), that it makes a much bigger difference at lower levels to choose wisely among hardware choices. $50-$200 seems to make a huge difference at lower levels, and some brands are always seen as being mass market and others seen as better, many within a fairly narrow price spectrum.

I'm not saying this based on experience, just on reading here and elsewhere about what is bashed and what is not.

Even at low price levels, some brands are warmer/harsher, some have 'useless' numbers of dsp modes, some run way hot, etc, etc.

And oddly enough, now that I am typing along, it would seem like high end brands ought to be MORE similar. The logic there is that there is an objective reality that systems are trying to create and that therefore the more you spend, the more systems should converge on that reality.

Of course, what is important at all levels is individual taste and what buyers like best, but......

Dan

 

[Jonathan M]

it would seem like high end brands ought to be MORE similar. The logic there is that there is an objective reality that systems are trying to create and that therefore the more you spend, the more systems should converge on that reality.

Indeed, this makes logical sense to me as well. Whether or not logic applies to the high-priced gear is the question. The mere suggestion that someone would spend $2k+ on a piece of wire, for instance, makes my mind boggle, and defies all logic IMO. Surely spending that cash on some live, unamplified music would be a better way to go?

It is my belief that the biggest variable in all of hifi is US. As I heard just the other day, perspectives alter perceptions.

I think most agree that peoples perspectives can vary wildly, so it should be no surprise that peoples perceptions of what is good in hifi also varies wildly.

Just my perspective

 

[ManojM]

Dan, although many high end brands sound good, they really do have their own unique sound and personality. Overall a Krell processor does sound different than an Integra etc, etc. My remark was made to point out that it is not terribly common anymore to find products (with the caveat that they are not the super low end) that don't at least perform the basics properly and sound at least reasonably good. There are still those that are better values, have better functionality, may deliver a better picture, or have better sound, but many of the major brands today are pretty good at their jobs. Likewise, I would be hard pressed to tell someone who asked me if they should buy a Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, HK, or Yamaha receiver that one is head and shoulders above the other, or that one of these brands is total crap. It has as much to do with personal perferences concerning sound quality, functionality, and features, and one product may fit your personal criteria better than another. Choice is always good, and no product is perfect.

 

[NickSP]

I would be hard pressed to tell someone who asked me if they should buy a Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, HK, or Yamaha receiver that one is head and shoulders above the other, or that one of these brands is total crap. It has as much to do with personal perferences concerning sound quality, functionality, and features, and one product may fit your personal criteria better than another. Choice is always good, and no product is perfect.

Agree, agree and agree with everything Manoj said. It does come down to personal criteria as most brands of electronics out there pretty much offer everything v.i.z. DTS-ES, DD-EX, etc. Almost all of those brands are very reliable and they all give each other a run for their money.

 

[Phil*K]

I guess I'm going to have to side with Dan on this a little. While I think there are differences at the upper levels they become more subtle. As you move down the food chain, so to speak, the difference become more pronounced as manufactures have to cut back on quality to make a profit. After a certain level you're deciding which deficiency you can live with, but I agree that this is a matter of personal preference. However, when we get to this level there are going to be products that, by our personal preference, the deficiency a particular product has is something that we can't tolerate and we think its "crap". The trick is not to say this as to someone else its not.

As far as the reliablility issue is concerned. Over that last 6 months I've probable demoed about 10 units from several different manufacturers. Most of them have been mid-fi and below. Of all the units only two of them had problems and when I started watching this board these particular brands kept croping up as having problems. I know we have sampling bias here and most of this is anecdotal, but at the same time you don't seem to find this as much as with other brands. I think we have a duty to report these issues, even if it hurts someones feelings. I also think its important to report how a particular brand handles the problem.

 

[George_W_K]

This is a really good thread. Before I had registered with this forum, the only real experience in the home theater field was going to local retailers, whether they were a Best Buy type store or a tiny specialty store. These places obviously had little choice as to the number of different brands I had exposure to and I came up with my own preconceived ideas about certain brands. My opinions were based a lot on the salesman's opinions before I had even compared different items. I never really promoted any items to other people but when it came to buying equipment for MY home theater only these certain brands would do. I never considered Panasonic as a good brand DVD, for example. After coming to this forum I came to find that Panasonic has one of the best DVD chipsets for the price range I was shopping in. (I ended up buying a Denon 1600 that has the same chipset.) I would never have made such a smart and informative decision without everyone's opinions and suggestions. With speakers, I was stuck on one brand, Definitive, but they were the only speaker I had listened to in their price range. Obviously they blow away my Cerwin-Vega's I currently am using. I posted a thread asking about them and I have compiled a list of over 20 brands to audition. Most of which I had never heard of. Basically, with the broad differences in opinions and expertice in this forum, I have learned a lot. And though I am happy for the suggestions, I still will go audition the equipment I inquire about because basically the only opinion that gets final say is mine, albiet it will be an informed one.

It's unfortunate that some people try to promote a certain brand "just because" or that some people are on the take, but most of the advice I have gotten seem genuine enough to totally offset the obtrusive stuff.

Basically, what I am trying to say here is...I love you guys! (Is that a Bud Light you're drinking?)

 

[Levesque]

Another thing we are not talking about here (and related to this thread subject) is what I call the "internet parrots". They just copy and post, ad nauseum, something they have read somewhere, without even any proof, and sometimes without even seeing or hearing the gear.

Example?

Yamaha "bright" Onkyo "warm" etc.
Rotel RSP-1066 BM issue: it doesn't apply to everyone
Denon DVD-3800 skipping and freezing": it's not all the units.
Toshiba RPTV upconversion "problem": apply to 1% of the DVDs out there.
Paradigm and Yammie = too bright.
Wow, the list is long...

So then you see people copying and posting those problems ad infinitum. "Don,t buy the equipment X Y or Z, because it has this problem...or it's to "warm"", etc, without having seen or heard the gear in action.

And they scared newbies that would probably be really happy with those pieces of equipment, because of the "copy and post" syndrom.

 

[Chu Gai]

now what's funny, is when you contact a manufacturer...let's say marantz and ask if their receiver will go well with Speaker X that's bright and you're worried that that the marantz is too bright of a receiver. follow that up with another email and this time tell them it's Speaker Y that's warm and you're concerned that the marantz is too warm. it does get kind of funny.

 

[Iver]

Maybe the guy just likes his Denon gear, feels it's a good value, and wants to be helpful.