A Few Words About A few words about...™ Once Upon a Time in America - Extended Director's Cut -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Peter Neski]

"WHY the older Blu gets such a bad rap"
sorry I don't totally agree with this part of your excellent post, That older BR while is correct color wise
It simply isn't a great transfer ,and the newer faded extended one points out that if the film was given a proper transfer with correct color it would look
better than that
The Movie might not have been sharper when it was released here in the US(in its edited cut) But the print I saw at Moma (years ago) was very sharp
and clearer than what we get from the old BR

 

[Bob Cashill]

It's the "same old Blu-ray" of the 229m version included with the Extended Director's Cut in the two-disc package. No re-encode.

As has been noted the EDC is not the same as the unmentionable Italian BD. But the restoration comparison note included in the package is a joke--the "before restoration" photos are what's actually on the disc. The scenes (from "discarded strips of working positives which were printed for reference only") are nowhere as pristine as the "After Restoration" photos misleadingly indicate. (One of them shows the boys. I don't recall any of the restored scenes featuring the boys.)

The only thing worse than the Italian BD was the shortened version, which is largely linear and all about plot. But the movie isn't about plot--it's about that finely wrought structure, and tone, and mood, all of it sacrificed to get butts on seats back in spring 1984. Seeing the 229m version in 1985 was a complete revelation--the shortened version, which lost about 90 minutes, is so bad you can't believe there was anything worth salvaging. But there was--and it's all in the 229m version. You can find the other 22m on YouTube, and if you have the older Blu-ray already I suggest you do that.

But do see the DCP if you can on the big screen. Restored footage warts and all it's a beauty.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Well, I finally got around to watching the new extended cut and I will say it is still a great film. On this new disc I had no major issue with the color. There was plenty of color and detail except in the scenes that have been newly added. The image may lean more sepia than the previous release but I have not cross checked that yet. I will also say the new scenes really don't amount to anything and in no way improve or enhance the story. In fact it seems a bit obvious why they would have been cut. So they look ugly and add nothing which means they mainly amount to a distraction.

I still love the film but I'm not sure inserting these new scenes was a good idea. That said I do recommend this disc and it is available in a single disc version for a song so well worth picking up to check this out.

I have to admit when I watched this I grew even more disappointed that Warner did not go to the trouble of creating an HD master of The Big Red One because the extended cut of that film really is a totally different and much better film. With Once Upon a Time in America the extended cut really does not turn out to be a better film...it's still great but the new scenes are more filler than anything else.

EDIT:

One thing I would add...anybody that thinks the color of the film was changed to better match the newly added footage I would have to say is way off base...there is no way to match the newly added footage because it looks like bad VHS tape with faded color. So, no I would say the color change is likely more due to a certain way somebody felt the film should look.

 

[Robert Harris]

Well, I finally got around to watching the new extended cut and I will say it is still a great film. On this new disc I had no major issue with the color. There was plenty of color and detail except in the scenes that have been newly added. THESE LOOK HORRIBLE...I mean really the worst thing I have ever seen on a blu-ray. The image may lean more sepia than the previous release but I have not cross checked that yet. I will also say the new scenes really don't amount to anything and in no way improve or enhance the story. In fact it seems a bit obvious why they would have been cut. So they look ugly and add nothing which means they mainly amount to a distraction.

I still love the film but I'm not sure inserting these new scenes were a good idea. That said I do recommend this disc and it is available in a single disc version for a song so well worth picking up to check this out.

I have to admit when I watched this I grew even more disappointed that Warner did not go to the trouble of creating an HD master of The Big Red One because the extended cut of that film really is a totally different and much better film. With Once Upon a Time in America the extended cut really does not turn out to be a better film...it's still great but the new scenes are more filler than anything else.

EDIT:

One thing I would add...anybody that thinks the color of the film was changed to better match the newly added footage I would have to say is way off base...there is no way to match the newly added footage because it looks like bad VHS tape with faded color. So, no I would say the color change is likely more due to a certain way somebody felt the film should look.

This is NOT about Warner Bros. I do not believe that they control what goes on the discs.

RAH

 

[haineshisway]

Well, I finally got around to watching the new extended cut and I will say it is still a great film. On this new disc I had no major issue with the color. There was plenty of color and detail except in the scenes that have been newly added. The image may lean more sepia than the previous release but I have not cross checked that yet. I will also say the new scenes really don't amount to anything and in no way improve or enhance the story. In fact it seems a bit obvious why they would have been cut. So they look ugly and add nothing which means they mainly amount to a distraction.

I still love the film but I'm not sure inserting these new scenes was a good idea. That said I do recommend this disc and it is available in a single disc version for a song so well worth picking up to check this out.

I have to admit when I watched this I grew even more disappointed that Warner did not go to the trouble of creating an HD master of The Big Red One because the extended cut of that film really is a totally different and much better film. With Once Upon a Time in America the extended cut really does not turn out to be a better film...it's still great but the new scenes are more filler than anything else.

EDIT:

One thing I would add...anybody that thinks the color of the film was changed to better match the newly added footage I would have to say is way off base...there is no way to match the newly added footage because it looks like bad VHS tape with faded color. So, no I would say the color change is likely more due to a certain way somebody felt the film should look.

Well, I would recommend "cross checking" because the new transfer's color is not right and the previous release IS right and it's more than just a minor difference. The color has been shifted to brown in the new transfer and it makes Mr. Leone and Mr. Delli Colli's three distinct looks for the film negligible, whereas in the previous transfer they are perfect.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

This is NOT about Warner Bros. I do not believe that they control what goes on the discs.

RAH

No slight against Warner Brothers was intended and I apologize if that is how what I wrote came across. I actually applaud their part in the effort to get this extended cut into the hands of collectors and I have no major issue with it. My comment that directly mentions Warner had to do with the fact that there seemed to be some effort expended to get the extended cut of this Leone film out there and while it is greatly appreciated it is not as big an "event" as getting the extended cut of Sam Fuller's The Big Red One out there on blu-ray. I don't say this because I prefer one film to the other but because I think the extended cut of The Big Red One really enhances the film and shows what the director intended to create...and it was a much broader canvas than what we get in the theatrical cut of The Big Red One.

The extended cut of this Leone film really just satisfies the curiosity of those of us that love the film in allowing us to see some cut footage reinserted into the film...but in my opinion does nothing to enhance or better the story or to open up new insight into the characters. In watching this new version of Once Upon a Time in America I just felt like if the effort can be made to create this version albeit with inferior footage that does not add to the film really why would somebody...whomever is responsible...not expend some effort and financial support toward getting the wonderful expansion of The Big Red One onto blu-ray.

I don't have any complaints about the new extended cut of Leone's film and I think it is wonderful it exists and I can watch it at home. I would just love the same opportunity with The Big Red One...less a complaint and more a request.

 

[FoxyMulder]

So let me get this straight, i am probably not reading this correct, the extended cut only has poor scenes in the extended scenes, the detail, colour, look etc are all fantastic except for when it comes to those deleted scenes. ?

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Well, I would recommend "cross checking" because the new transfer's color is not right and the previous release IS right and it's more than just a minor difference. The color has been shifted to brown in the new transfer and it makes Mr. Leone and Mr. Delli Colli's three distinct looks for the film negligible, whereas in the previous transfer they are perfect.

Hi Bruce,

I will have a look at the older blu-ray...I have it...but I just have not had the time to look at it yet. Watching the new version took up a great deal of time and so I did not yet break out the older disc to see the difference. I have no doubt you are likely correct about the color issues. I'm not an expert on these matters and really I don't think my thoughts about specifics like this are as important as hearing what Mr. Harris or you might have to say.

I admit I generally get swept up in the film and so after watching for a period of time miss specific things like color differences from different versions. I had read that some people felt the color was "drained" and I just wanted to comment that was not what I saw. The big red apple in the train station was in fact red when I watched this. The film was loaded with splashes of bright color...is it right? I'd prefer to let you comment on that.

The one thing I did not really feel had happened was that somebody had altered the color timing to better match the newly added footage...because the newly added footage looks so horrible...including the color...there would be no point in trying to match it. So, I just don't think that would be the intent of the color change.

I understand what you mean about the "brown" shift and my guess would be it was more an aesthetic choice...of somebody...than an attempt to match the ugly lack of color in the newly added footage.

 

[MatthewA]

Why couldn't they just colorize the new scenes? The technology has come a long way since the days of those awful Ted Turner crayola jobs.

 

[Konstantinos]

@Reggie

Why don't you check caps-a-holic comparisons?
it's between the italian disc and the old US disc, but the new US disc is the same with Italian, as far as color is concerned.

http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=2737&disc2=2738&cap1=25236&cap2=25251&art=full&image=11&hd_multiID=296&action=1&lossless=#vergleich
http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=2737&disc2=2738&cap1=25228&cap2=25243&art=full&image=3&hd_multiID=296&action=1&lossless=#vergleich
http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=2737&disc2=2738&cap1=25233&cap2=25248&art=full&image=8&hd_multiID=296&action=1&lossless=#vergleich

There is a yellow tint all over the film.
I'm not sure if it was the director's intentions.
Has anything been said about this officially?

 

[FoxyMulder]

Why couldn't they just colorize the new scenes? The technology has come a long way since the days of those awful Ted Turner crayola jobs.

Better yet do seamless branching so we have the 229 minute cut with all the detail levels this new scan brings to the table, have both versions on the same disc and i would have bought this, i can't bring myself to buy this after reading this thread.

 

[JoshZ]

@Reggie

Why don't you check caps-a-holic comparisons?
it's between the italian disc and the old US disc, but the new US disc is the same with Italian, as far as color is concerned.

In post 56 of this thread, Bruce compared the new U.S. disc to the Italian release and says that they are not the same and do not have the same colors. The new disc is better than the Italian, but he still feels that it's wrong - just less wrong.

 

[Robert Harris]

Regarding using digital technology to better an image with problems...

There is little to be done, if the original image has a complete loss of shadow detail, and heavy contrast. It appears to come from a color dupe.

RAH

 

[Konstantinos]

In post 56 of this thread, Bruce compared the new U.S. disc to the Italian release and says that they are not the same and do not have the same colors. The new disc is better than the Italian, but he still feels that it's wrong - just less wrong.

I've seen screenshots from the US disc in a review, and they look exactly the same to me with the italian.

edit: here is is.
Looks the same!
http://www.blu-raydefinition.com/reviews/time-america-extended-directors-cut-blu-ray-review.html

up: italian, down: US
http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=2737&disc2=2738&cap1=25229&cap2=25244&art=full&image=4&hd_multiID=296&action=1&lossless=#vergleich
http://img.blu-raydefinition.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Once-Upon-a-Time-in-America-Extended-BD_15.png?043efc

http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=2737&disc2=2738&cap1=25236&cap2=25251&art=full&image=11&hd_multiID=296&action=1&lossless=#vergleich
http://img.blu-raydefinition.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Once-Upon-a-Time-in-America-Extended-BD_31.png?043efc

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

So let me get this straight, i am probably not reading this correct, the extended cut only has poor scenes in the extended scenes, the detail, colour, look etc are all fantastic except for when it comes to those deleted scenes. ?

I defer to Bruce and Robert to make specific comments about how this looks on the new blu-ray in comparison to how it looks/looked on film. Any comments I make are simply about my personal experience watching the film in my home theater and I am not an expert.

Here's my take:

Is the film "drained" of color? No, that's not what I saw.

Is the color changed? Yes, I think it likely is but I can't say to what degree at this point nor can I really compare it to how it looked on film from memory. I did not want to bring up the word "yellow" because of the major issues people had with the latest blu of The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly. I will say that yes I think the film has a more...um...sepia or...um...brownish...or yellowish overall look. The big thing with this film is that the different time periods were given their own "look" by Mr. Leone and so this has probably been lessened in this new version and all of the time frames made to have a more similar look...which would be an issue and conflict with the director's intent. I have not seen this on film in years and have not seen the old blu-ray in some time. So, take everything I say with a large grain of salt. I think maybe that because this film is to a great extent about memories and looking back at the past that somebody felt this sort of sepia-like scheme matched the theme of the film...that's a guess on my part only. Is it as heavy as the change in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly...not at all. Interestingly though...it is a similar type of change.

Is the color changed to better match the newly added footage? I sincerely doubt it because the new footage looks so poor and as pointed out by Mr. Harris lacks so much detail...think a smeary vhs image with faded color...that there would be no point in trying to match anything to it. Basically what happened for me was as the film shifted back and forth between the added footage and the footage from the 229 minute cut the difference was so drastic it was more of a distraction than anything else. The other thing this does when you are watching this is highlights to an even greater degree how much more detail they have in the footage from the 229 minute version of the film...because as this thing cuts back and forth it sort of becomes like you are taking off your glasses and the world becomes blurry and then putting them back on again to see everything clearly. So, for me I was sort of thrilled each time the newly added footage ended and we were returned to a detailed and more colorful image. Do this over the course of 3 plus hours and at least I began to really enjoy the old footage and dread each new insert.

Does the new footage improve the film? Well, as a fan of the film I would say no, it does not. It is interesting to see it though and so that I appreciated. There are no revelations in it and nothing that opens up the story or takes you deeper into the characters. I won't specifically comment on what is in it to allow people to discover it on their own but in my opinion it would have been best added as deleted scenes in a special feature. I also will say I am a fan of seeing "extended cuts" of films I admire and with something like Apocalypse Now I thought the added footage was pretty wild and did alter the tone and feel of the film and also broadened our view of the story and characters. As far as if it "improved" Apocalypse Now...well...I think that is up to each individual viewer but it did make each version of the film a different experience. I did not get that at all from this newly added footage to Leone's film.

Elsewhere on this board people have talked about Kingdom of Heaven, better film in the longer version, and I brought up The Big Red One, again a better film in the longer version. Sometimes the longer cut is better but in the case of this new extended cut of Once Upon a Time in America longer is just longer.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

@Reggie

Why don't you check caps-a-holic comparisons?
it's between the italian disc and the old US disc, but the new US disc is the same with Italian, as far as color is concerned.

There is a yellow tint all over the film.
I'm not sure if it was the director's intentions.
Has anything been said about this officially?

Well, because I had the old blu-ray I thought I'd just go back and have a look at it. Going by those caps it looks like the old disc has brighter colors and is zoomed in a bit and/or not framed as well. There seems to be more detail in the "Italian" disc which I have not seen but there did seem to be plenty of detail in the new extended cut US release.

 

[haineshisway]

So let me get this straight, i am probably not reading this correct, the extended cut only has poor scenes in the extended scenes, the detail, colour, look etc are all fantastic except for when it comes to those deleted scenes. ?

No, the color on the extended cut is not fantastic. It is better than the Italian Blu-ray, but still brownish and I guess I can just keep saying it till the cows come home, the color on the previous Blu-ray (included in this new set) is the correct color. Is the detail better in the extended cut? Yes. Do I have a problem with the detail in the previous Blu-ray? Not really - it resembles what the release prints looked like of that version (229 minutes). Do I like the added new scenes? No, I find them invasive and not helpful in any way.

Amusingly, on another board some guy says the 229 minute version never came out in Mr. Leone's lifetime and therefore was not approved by him. This is the kind of stuff we have to put up with on the Internet. The 229 minute version, which was HIS version was released less than a year later (in the States) than the truncated US cut). Mr. Leone did not pass away until 1989, five years later. And no one corrects this guy. It's unbelievable.

 

[Dave H]

Bruce and Robert,

I appreciate your input on this. I've been wanting to purchase some version of this movie for a while and will just opt for the original Warner disc (~$13) and save some extra bucks. Proper color and intent is very important to me and my viewing as my JVC front projector is pro-calibrated every 400-500 hours to keep the lowest delta errors possible. The extra detail looks nice on the new extended version screencaps, but color, intent, and continuity trumps it (for me).

Maybe one day we get a new scan of the 229 min version with proper color.

Bruce, I agree - some of these reviewers and others with their ASSumptions are unbelievable.

 

[Michel_Hafner]

It's no nonsense at all. A BD 50 can also hold 8 hours or 10, even 15. The average bit rate just goes down and down till it reaches poor streaming levels. Relevant is the average bit rate and entropy of the material to be encoded. For new 4K the entropy is high and 15 Mbit/s is far from optimal. It's a fact, not an opinion. Far from optimal does not mean poor, only far from optimal. I like my grain finely resolved, free of visible compression noise and with an analogue and smooth looking image embedded in it. And here 30 Mbit/s really helps compared to 15 Mbit/s. 15 Mbit/s is pretty Blu Ray stone age and 20+ is absolute standard for most releases, even unimportant catalogue titles. High quality releases often use the 30+ range. For a good reason. It does not look like 15.

Those who complained that the older version should have been split over two discs will have the same complaint here because the extended version is on one disc and even longer. But it's nonsense, of course, because it's a BD 50, which easily holds that much running time.

 

[haineshisway]

It's no nonsense at all. A BD 50 can also hold 8 hours or 10, even 15. The average bit rate just goes down and down till it reaches poor streaming levels. Relevant is the average bit rate and entropy of the material to be encoded. For new 4K the entropy is high and 15 Mbit/s is far from optimal. It's a fact, not an opinion. Far from optimal does not mean poor, only far from optimal. I like my grain finely resolved, free of visible compression noise and with an analogue and smooth looking image embedded in it. And here 30 Mbit/s really helps compared to 15 Mbit/s. 15 Mbit/s is pretty Blu Ray stone age and 20+ is absolute standard for most releases, even unimportant catalogue titles. High quality releases often use the 30+ range. For a good reason. It does not look like 15.

You lost me at entropy

I understand what you are saying but don't think it affects those of us who are not blowing things up to fill a 110-foot screen.