Why I am starting to get excited about BD 4K... (1 Viewer)

[Kevin Collins]

While the BDA has NOT yet finalized the specifications for 4K BD discs and players, there are some things that I am pretty excited about that seem to be on the plate regardless if the t's are cross or the i's are dotted. The features I am referring to will require hardware to support, but these features, IMO, are more important and desirable than the 4K resolution.


I wrote about this back on 11/4/13, but now it seems more of a reality!


For starters:

Color sub-sampling of 4:4:4 vs. Blu-Ray's color sub-sampling of 4:2:0. What does this mean? More accurate color as color information per pixel is not thrown away.

10-bit gradation vs Blu-Ray's 8-bit gradation. What does that do for you? Well the best example is watch any BD movie where a person is underwater looking up at the sun. You will see banding around the sun in the blue water. This artifact essentially disapears with 10-bit gradation.


HDR (High Dynamic Range). This is kind of an open standard that allows for substantial increase in dynamic range for peak brightness. One of the technologies that supposedly will be supported is Dolby Vision. Read my write up on that here. If it is good as what I saw at Dolby -- this will be impressive.


and last but not least an increased color gamut. BD 4K will support the REC2020 color gamut from the previous 1080P standard REC709.


Forget the 4K, just get me the above ASAP. Of course, I will have to buy all new equipment... I've been waiting eagerly for this day... This holiday there will be some nice XMas presents in my HT!


Who else is going to be replacing all their stuff?!

 

[Sam Posten]

No replacing, there are still tons of DVDs I can watch just fine at 120" with upscaling. But I'll certainly buy 4kBD (gosh they better put a GOOD name on that!) over blu when possible.

 

[Ejanss]

While the BDA has NOT yet finalized the specifications for 4K BD discs and players, there are some things that I am pretty excited about that seem to be on the plate regardless if the t's are cross or the i's are dotted. The features I am referring to will require hardware to support, but these features, IMO, are more important and desirable than the 4K resolution.


I wrote about this back on 11/4/13, but now it seems more of a reality!


For starters:

Color sub-sampling of 4:4:4 vs. Blu-Ray's color sub-sampling of 4:2:0. What does this mean? More accurate color as color information per pixel is not thrown away.

subsampling_examples.png


10-bit gradation vs Blu-Ray's 8-bit gradation. What does that do for you? Well the best example is watch any BD movie where a person is underwater looking up at the sun. You will see banding around the sun in the blue water. This artifact essentially disapears with 10-bit gradation.


HDR (High Dynamic Range). This is kind of an open standard that allows for substantial increase in dynamic range for peak brightness. One of the technologies that supposedly will be supported is Dolby Vision. Read my write up on that here. If it is good as what I saw at Dolby -- this will be impressive.


and last but not least an increased color gamut. BD 4K will support the REC2020 color gamut from the previous 1080P standard REC709.


Forget the 4K, just get me the above ASAP. Of course, I will have to buy all new equipment... I've been waiting eagerly for this day... This holiday there will be some nice XMas presents in my HT!


Who else is going to be replacing all their stuff?!

Anyone who knows what the HECK you're talking about.

 

[Keith Cobby]

Good for the enthusiast but this is incremental for most people. Although the industry will move to 4K (and then 8K etc) the big advances in AV technology have been made, at least until holographic is developed.

 

[Robin9]

For normal people who are not excited by technology for its own sake, the only real question about 4K is whether they will be able to see an improvement when watching films in their own homes. How many people, for example, have films in their collection with a scene where someone is looking up through water at the sun?


I am quite satisfied with the quality of properly done Blu-ray discs and I do not feel the need for an improvement. In many cases there is scope for an improvement in the quality of the elements and the mastering, but that is not the fault of the Blu-ray specification.


Oh, and like Sam Posten, I still watch DVDs without problems.

 

[Kevin Collins]

For normal people who are not excited by technology for its own sake, the only real question about 4K is whether they will be able to see an improvement when watching films in their own homes. How many people, for example, have films in their collection with a scene where someone is looking up through water at the sun?


I am quite satisfied with the quality of properly done Blu-ray discs and I do not feel the need for an improvement. In many cases there is scope for an improvement in the quality of the elements and the mastering, but that is not the fault of the Blu-ray specification.

I didn't know that normal people posted on this forum...


Keep in mind on of the parts of the mission statements for this forum:


"We the members of the forum are interested in the film product to be recorded and reproduced as closely as possible to the way the original creator(s) of that particular film intended."


The "looking up at water" was just one easy example to point out the differences between 8-bit and 10-bit color. In reality, we are still not approaching what the human eye sees in the real world. If we are excited about reproducing what the director saw when they made the movie, then many of these artifacts should not be tolerated. This is hardly getting excited about technology for technology sake. Seeing banding drives me batty, but then so does watching DVD's in my HT.


It's a sad day if we feel satisfied with the quality of BD, many a cinematographer would turn in their grave. No amount of authoring can get over the inherent limitations of getting a picture on our screen that is accurately represented of what was real. But then I know of many that like to set their contrast up to the maximum, totally wiping out any detail in the white for a "brighter" picture or others turning their color up to see the grass on the super-bowl be ultra green. I guess many of us are infatuated with the unreal -- I guess that is why Photoshop exists for pictures.


I'm hardly one to get excited for technology sake. If I was, I would have already spent $ on the ridiculous 4K curved displays which alter the real picture -- that is technology for simply being a gimmick. The improvements listed above are no gimmick and they get us to the real picture and that is what I am interested in. My parents and the rest of my immediate family -- the "mass market" of people are happy with HD streaming video, HD cable/satellite and DVD -- they, like my wife would never even notice banding. They don't even notice compression artifacts that are prevalent in DVD. However, back in the 90's I didn't notice the artifacts from 3:2 pull down artifacts or interlacing artifacts -- until someone showed me with a Farudja scaler. Then I always saw them. When I was doing HD-DVD, compression artifacts, the 4:2:0 color sampling and 8-bit depth became painfully obvious when the compressions experts working on WMV showed me what the film material looked like and what the HD-DVD or BD looked like. Then I always saw the artifacts.


I can guarantee you that if the the BDA delivers on these specifications AND HW manufacturers actually implement the specs for their displays and AV equipment -- any "normal" person will be able to see the difference on a properly calibrated set if they were shown what the picture should really look like.


If there is going to be some real 4K PJ's out this XMas, then I for one will be laying down some cash to see the significant improvements available in the new format. It's a great reason to reinvigorate our local HTF meets so that others can "see" the real difference in this new format.

 

[Kevin Collins]

Good for the enthusiast but this is incremental for most people. Although the industry will move to 4K (and then 8K etc) the big advances in AV technology have been made, at least until holographic is developed.

And we are getting one step closer to that....

 

[Persianimmortal]

I for one fully understand and appreciate the technological improvements - at least in theory; let's see how it pans out in practice and how long that takes.


But I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not going to go through the painfully long drip-feeding process that we went through with getting our favorite movies on DVD and then Blu-ray. Neither, I suspect, will many other people, most of whom have already abandoned discs of any kind.


4K content in the form of streaming/download will eventually become the norm as the manufacturers eventually only release 4K-compatible hardware. 4K Blu-ray on the other hand is DOA.

 

[Alf S]

Zero plans to replace anything. Be it DVD or BD. I see no compelling reason to do so unless you have a screen the size of a multiplex theater.

 

[Worth]

In reality, we are still not approaching what the human eye sees in the real world. If we are excited about reproducing what the director saw when they made the movie, then many of these artifacts should not be tolerated. This is hardly getting excited about technology for technology sake. Seeing banding drives me batty, but then so does watching DVD's in my HT.


It's a sad day if we feel satisfied with the quality of BD, many a cinematographer would turn in their grave. No amount of authoring can get over the inherent limitations of getting a picture on our screen that is accurately represented of what was real.

Well, there's perfection and then there's "good enough". For the average person, DVD is already good enough. They're interested in the story, and as long is the picture is in focus and watchable, and the sound is clear and audible, that'll do.


Blu-ray is a whole other level beyond that. A good blu-ray already exceeds the visual quality of a 35mm print in many respects, and at least approaches it in others.

 

[LoveHT]

Just adding my $0.02 worth.

I just purchased Sony's 4K tv. I know that there isn't a lot of source material out there yet. With that said, I purchased the TV with the mindset that I would grow into it if you will. I don't by technology for the sake of it, but I needed to add a TV to the house and I figured I would take the opportunity to get ahead of the curve a little.


just a point...I still watch a lot of DVDs, and of course blu-ray. But I did manage to give up my betamax, laser discs, and VHS tapes; not to mention my 8-tracks and cassette recordings.


It's okay to be comfortable with the current technology, but sooner or later, we will be discussing the demise of DVDs, etc.

After all aren't we all built the same, we love movies, HT, etc. I for one love the audio/video technology. I come here to get the latest on set-up tweaking, viewing and listening recommendations.


IMHO, I don't think I will ever be satisfied. And there lies my point. DVDs are acceptable, blu-rays are better, I'm hoping to add 4K to the list- in the search for the best possible picture quality I can get in my home.


Thanks for reading,

Rocco

 

[Worth]

I've been an early adopter since letterboxing started becoming common on laserdisc titles in the late '80s, early '90s. But here's why I'm not particularly excited about 4K. There's very little 4K material. 90% of new films are finished at 2K, including all 3D titles. 4K scans are becoming standard for older titles, but the difference between 2K and 4K presentations of anything shot on 35mm is pretty minimal at normal viewing distances.


On top of that, instead of seeing continued improvements to 720p/1080i from the broadcast/cable/satellite industries, we're going to get half-assed, over-compressed 4K, resulting in worse overall quality.


It feels like 4K is less about tangible improvements in picture quality, and more about a marketing hook to get people to buy new televisions. And you know that in a few years time, they'll start pushing 8K sets.

 

[vidiot33]

It certainly has potential, but I think it's wise to wait. These things are software driven,'and it will take time to produce enough native 4K material, and as been noted, by that time, 8K will probably be upon us. The enthusiasts, such as those on this forum, are only useful to the industry as early adopters, who tend to overpay for the latest and greatest, and help manufacturers recover some of their R&D. The general public will determine the fate of 4K Blu Ray, and let's not forget that heavily compressed music downloads, Bose speakers, and cheap LCD's are what they have chosen.

 

[LoveHT]

Hard to argue with your points!

Rocco

 

[Dave Moritz]

While I am excited about the format coming I will buy it after I see it in person! I will not buy it until I travel to a retail store and see how good the picture looks and see how the player performs. I am also going to look into what the player will and will not work on. For myself I own a Samsung UN55F9000 UHD TV and it has the best picture of any tv I have ever owned. That being said is after this format has reached the point where we finally see and have content that can be played on these new tv's will it actually deliver? Will it deliver an experience that beats 1080p HD? And will it be noticeable enough to make people want to go out and replace there HDTV's? If not then what is the next move for the industry?


I feel that once we can see the picture on a 4K/UHD TV with a 4K/UHD bluray being played the proof will ether be there or it will not all specifications aside!


We all have different expectations and needs in our home theater setups and things that are more important and things that are not so important. I have heard the argument that 4K/UHD is useless on a 40" - 55" display but didn't they say something similar to 1080p HD back in the day? For me I might have a 55" UHD TV right now but my goal is to eventually have a 4K/UHD projector and a 120" - 160" screen with a 100" screen being absolute minimum! So for my use and for others that are planning on going the projection route 4K/UHD IMHO will have a much bigger impact and should deliver better video quality in that situation. It is totally possible that we are looking at the modern day laser disc from the stand point of it ending up a niche product. But again as far as I am concerned if the format delivers video quality that we can not get with 1080p HD and as long as enough movies are released in the format. Then I will buy it and even if it goes away those movies will still be in my library and will still offer the best presentation available even if enough consumers do not support the format. But some of that success or failure would come from those who love home theater. As long as the format delivers and the picture does actually surpass 1080p HD those of us that have good displays and high quality surround systems could very well help educate others by showing them how good it can look. Those who show and educate others by inviting them to enjoy and experience what the format brings will possibly go on to talk to other and those people could very well turn around and replicate that same experience to others. This is a better way IMHO than possibly going into a mass retail store that did not calibrate there displays and have the demo set up in a overly bright retail space. While we as ht enthusiasts may not be able to single handedly make the format succeed we can how ever held educate family and friends who could go on to talk to others with factual information. And in that environment it could help a lot more than someone that goes to a retailer and is told anything, or is shown a bad demo and told anything just to make the sale. I feel that is one of the reasons why more and more people would rather buy online then hunt down a respectable ht retailer. The sad part of this is we used to have a lot of specialty retailers that took the time to set up there rooms and many of them had sales people that took the time and helped the customers and gave them the level of customer service you just mostly do not find in today's big box stores.


So yes I am very excited about the new format that is coming! I was very excited when dvd came out and even more so after seeing 1080p Bluray and am still impressed with the video quality that bluray provides. But I also know that it could be better than it is today! And beyond just shear resolution having a wider color gamut and more bit depth combined with resolution is what could give us a better movie experience. Of course technology is not the end all be all because the story being told has to be good, it has to be a well told story combined with audio that is immersive and makes you feel like your a part of what is going on. I know that we have been waiting some time to finally see UHD Bluray and it may be easy to make judgments based on the limited information we are currently getting. The bluray association is not helping this any by the lack of information as we get closer and closer to roll out date of the format. So while I am excited about UHD Bluray and I can not wait to see it at my local retailer. In the end I have to see it! It still has to sell itself to me as I need to see how good it looks and I want to see the features and what the players perform like. It is only then after seeing the players perform and seeing the picture and knowing if I can take the player home and plug it into my exsisting UHD TV that I will pull the money out and take that player home. And then start purchasing UHD Bluray content and I also want to see a decent amount of titles available, and not just quantity but movies that are worth buying over again for those titles that are older titles. Otherwise the bluray version sitting at home will be just fine and that will be that and it sure will not help convince consumers to put down there hard earned cash on these new players and movies.

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[Dave Moritz]

According to an email I just got from Oppo when I asked them about if they would have a Oppo UHD Bluray player available around Christmas 2015.


Dave,

We will not have a UHD player until sometime in late-2016 or early-2017.

Best Regards,

Customer Service
OPPO Digital, Inc.
2629B Terminal Blvd.
Mountain View, CA 94043
[email protected]
Tel: 650-961-1118
Fax: 650-961-1119