Things looking ominous for BOTH formats? (1 Viewer)

[John_McKittrick]

The PSP has and will continue to have many firmware upgrades. Does that make it an inferior product? Hardly.


Blue Ray Player = $1000-$1800

HD-DVD = $500-$800

Both do the same thing. You figure out which one people will flock to. And dont even get started on the PS3. Nobody is going to salivate over a $600 game system with an inferior BD drive. Use some common sense.

 

[Kevin. W]

You are correct that it is a small niche market, but so was DVD when it first came out. What was the price of a SD-DVD when they first hit the market. The Toshiba HD is actually very cheap for what you get. As far as not seeing a difference, you really have to see one thats hooked up properly in action. There definitely is a difference in PQ. I'm very happy with mine, and look forward to the release off more software for it.

 

[Edwin-S]

Like I'm going to take the opinion about inferior BD drives in the PS3 seriously from a person who has "long live XBOX" in his sig. Right!!

Where is your evidence that the BD drive in the PS3 is going to be "inferior" to BD drives in standalone players. Also where is your evidence that it is "inferior" to HD DVD drives. Please enlighten us as to why the drive is "inferior" since it is obvious, from your comments, that you have had hands-on experience with the PS3.

Regarding the use of a PS3 as a movie transport: I recently had a long discussion with the owner of a local boutique stereo shop. During the conversation he stated that the industry buzz was that the video output from the PS3 was going to be every bit as good as a standalone player. He actually thought that this fact would work against Blu-ray.....especially with small retailers such as himself. His reasoning was that he could see no reason to stock a standalone player costing twice as much as a fully loaded PS3, because he was worried about being stuck with stock that won't move: especially if the PS3 lives up to the industry buzz regarding it's video quality.

I told him that a lot of movie enthusiasts have stated that they would never use a "game system" as a transport in a home theater. His response was, "why not? If the video quality is there I would use one myself." This is coming from a guy who is spending thousands of dollars on monoblock amps for a new stereo system he is building. He has been in the audio/video business for a hella long time and has seen a lot go by in the CE business. If he is stating that the buzz is good regarding video quality on the PS3 then I believe him...because if there is anyone who can't stand Sony....it's him. So your statement that the BD drive in the PS3 is inferior is unadulterated FUD.

 

[RobertR]

So Edwin, is it your prediction that sales of standalone BD players will be poor, and people NOT interested in a game console (such as me) will be buying the PS3 in droves just to watch movies?

 

[Edwin-S]

I'm not making any predictions about how one person or another is going to spend their money. This is how I break it down (for Blu-ray):

1) If you do not play games, only watch movies, and are not concerned about player costs, then it stands to reason that a standalone player is the best way to go.

2) If you do not play games, only watch movies, and are concerned about player costs then the PS3 is a viable instrument for getting into the Blu-ray disc format for close to the cost of a standalone HD DVD player. You also have the option to play the occasional game......if the fancy takes you.

3) If you play games and like to watch movies then the PS3 is the way to get the best of both worlds for a reasonable cost. I do not consider $599 US to be an unreasonable price for a device that is capable of storing up to 50 gig on a removable disc, comes with a 60 GB hard drive, has full HDMI output, and supports at least the basic 5.1 legacy audio codecs. The whining and moaning about the price is, frankly, perplexing. XBOX360 was selling for $499 for a 20 GB hard drive, a standard DVD drive, and no HD movie playing capacity and it still flew off the shelves. All of a sudden, a Cnote more for a more capable machine is a death stroke? It's ridiculous.

I'll go out on a limb and say that I believe that standalone Blu-ray players will sell at about the same rate as HD DVD players, because the initial target market is primarily male "early adopters" who like to have the latest technological toys and who are less concerned about the cost of the toys. Frankly, I expect that the vast majority of people who bought HD DVD players will also purchase a BD player. If I wasn't constrained by cash flow that is what I would do. Since I do have cash restraints I am most likely going to go the PS3 route. Once I start upgrading my older devices then I will look at standalone players. Did I answer the question to your satisfaction?

 

[RobertR]

I take it then that you disagree with the dealer, who thinks standalone player stock "won't move" because of the PS3, and that there's NO reason not to buy it instead of a standalone. You can't simultaneously say that the PS3 will sell well among NON game players AND not negatively affect standalone sales.

 

[Edwin-S]

The dealer I was talking to believes that consumers of CE equipment are very price concious; therefore, his belief is that PS3 will affect his ability to move higher priced players out of his store. I, personally, do not agree that PS3 would be a major impact on his ability to sell higher priced standalones, because his operation services a market segment for which PS3 is a non-factor. People frequenting his store are primarily audio/video enthusiasts; the kind of people who would never admit that a "game machine" could ever compete with a standalone player, even if they were presented with unassailable proof that there was no discernible difference. Audio/Video nuts will always be able to come up with a reason for why one device is "inferior" to another. So I don't understand why he thinks PS3 would be such a negative factor on his ability to sell players; however, I do agree with him that price is a factor that would affect his sales, but not necessarily from the standpoint of the "cheapest player wins" ala HD DVD. I think what will affect him is if there are price differences for the same player. For example, if both he and Future Shop (Canadian subsidiary of Best Buy) are selling the same players and Future Shop sells them for 50 bucks less then he is going to get hit, because most people would be willing to chance breaking a leg if they thought they could save two bucks......let alone 50. Now, I am more likely to spend the extra money because I feel the extra cost is worth it. I like the fact that I can walk into a store and do the following:

1) Talk about (and take up their time talking about) audio/video equipment and never once have them try to sell me something. There are times where I have spent an hour or more talking about equipment and leave without purchasing anything.

2) Being able to take an expensive piece of audio equipment home and audition it before putting any money on the line. There aren't any big box retailers that would allow you to take home a 1500 dollar pair of bi-wire speaker cables without first purchasing them.

3) I like to support smaller locally owned operations whenever possible. I find that the level of service is much better when the shop is owned by a person who is counting on it for their livilihood.

Unfortunately, right now I'm in the "break a leg to save two bucks" camp because I took a big drop in income from switching to a new career in mid-life. :frowning: That is why I am considering the PS3 as a stop gap machine for playing movies until I can, hopefully, recover a bit more spending power.


Well, to a certain extent you can, if you approach it from the standpoint that the PS3 and standalone players are aimed at two different stratas of non-gamers. The higher priced standalone is aimed at the non-gamer with money to burn and the belief that a "game machine" just does not "cut it" as a transport for a home theater.....no matter what. For this segment, the cheaper PS3 is a non-factor for any decision to dive into the Blu-ray format.

The PS3 could have appeal to the second strata of non-gamer. The non-gamer who would like to watch Blu-ray movies but who is working with a limited budget. This strata of non-gamer may be more likely to consider using the PS3 as a Blu-ray movie transport, because they will look at from the point of "does it do the job?", rather than "does it fit with my perception of what constitutes acceptable home theater equipment?". The upside is that the PS3 can always be flogged off to a gamer when the upgrade bug hits.

 

[Cees Alons]

Admin note:

Can we, please, keep the discussion on the level of the topic itself?
Nils it looks like you may now aim your arrows at Austan as well, who keeps posting and linking to negative reports about a HR-format player even though most of those reported flaws seem to have been decisively tackled by the manufacturer.

But of course, we rather have people to stay on the meta-level of the discussion at hand, and not go on and on (well, at least once is enough ) about the desirability and legality of the subject being brought forward in the first place.


Cees

 

[Rob_HD]

Just to address a couple of items.

First, HD DVD launched with 7,500 to 10,000 players in the first week, and have sent numerous extra shipments since then. There are folks who still try to insist that they have only shipped 7,500 units to date based on a "once upon a time" article now over a month old, which was, in turn, based on AVS reports of 3 weeks before that.

One the their largest dealers has said that HD DVD has now shipped over 50,000 players. Of course, no one here has to believe that. They could claim it's a nonsense unless someone posts the shipping slips online to prove it, but I think many of the rest of us are realistic enough to know that it's probably accurate.

Regarding the title of this thread - Is it possible that the Studios and other backers are now starting to get the impression that Bluray/Sony/whoever was just blowing loads of vlue smoke up their posteriors?

Going around and collecting every negative post about one format or the other doesn't really shed any perspective unless you post the "positive raves" as well (of which there are far, far, more for HD DVD, than negative).

 

[Edwin-S]

Sorry if I went off topic, but the general tenor of this thread seems, once again, to be Blu-ray vs HD DVD rather than a discussion about why both formats could be in trouble: especially when someone posts unsubstantiated statements about "inferior" drives. The post just below yours confirms, to me, that this thread is simply HD DVD vs Blu-ray. I will try to stick to the topic in future but it is difficult when someone posts FUD and then says, "use your common sense".

 

[Chris S]

I don't think so and I'm not sure how one would have gotten this impression. Have studios spoken ill about Blu-ray as of late? Has there been any studio PR people recently discussing any disappointment in either format?

 

[RobertR]

I don’t think you can assume that budget conscious HD buyers are “it must be BD” people. I think a big majority of budget conscious HD buyers will compare the PS3 to the HDDVD players. They’ll have to decide that a game console is more desirable than a set top player. The REAL “I must have BD” people are going to be choosing between the PS3 and set top boxes. Every PS3 purchase made by such people is a lost purchase of a set top BD player, and the better the PS3 is at playing movies, the more that will happen.

 

[Cees Alons]

You're right, Edwin, and it's a shame.

It looks like almost every thread in this subforum ends up that way. And filled by the same individuals, not just posting once, but over and over again.

That could be nice in the flow of a real discussion, but caused by the terrible side-tracking, that isn't so either in practice.

I'm beginning to wonder why we have these areas in the first place, who it is we're catering to and what people are expecting.

There's one category this area hardly attracts anymore: those who actually own a high-resolution player! That's almost pathetic, isn't it?


Cees

 

[Robert Crawford]

I hope you remembered that when discussing that other HD video format not known as HD DVD. Also, it's a good practice for us all which will give the HTF membership an even perspective without being just a non-value fight of Blu Ray vs. HD DVD.





Crawdaddy

 

[Robert Crawford]

Yes, it is because I want to hear from the owners of HD DVD players and in the next couple months, the Blu Ray player owners because their experiences will allow the rest of us to make an inform purchasing decision. All that other noise is just that, noise and it serves no purpose at all except to cause confusion, resentment and reduced participation in any type of worthwhile HD Video discussion.

 

[Jordan_E]

I own an HD DVD player (no probs at all so far!) and will be buying Blu Ray, because as I have stated before: I loves me HD!!! The silliness surrounding this so-called "format war" is often hilarious. But also quite sad. If one format wins in the end, well, I still have the movies on the "losing" side and will enjoy those until the said player dies. Sorta like my SACDs and DVD-As.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled pissing match, already in progress.

 

[Joseph Bolus]

I have an experience at a retail store that I want to share:

Yesterday (June 9th, 2006) I walked into my local Circuit City to see how the High-Def stuff was coming. I couldn't find *any* HD decks being displayed, so I waited until one of the "red shirts" was finished waiting on a couple looking at a Samsung 65" DLP HDTV. (I figured that since he was actively engaged in selling HDTV sets, he would be knowledgable regarding the HD optical disc wars.)

This is how the conversation went:
Me: "Hi! I was trying to find one of your HD-DVD player demos. Do you have one hooked-up?"
Salesman: "Sure!" (He takes me over to a Panasonic upconverting player feeding a Panasonic 42" plasma set. I have to admit that 1080i output was on the player's feature card.)
Me: "No ... I'm talking about the HD-DVD format. Do you have any players here that support that?"
Salesman: "Do you have a specific brand name in mind?"
Me: "Well ... Toshiba, for one."
Salesman: "Oh. Well ... We don't sell Toshiba's here."
Me: "What about Blu-ray? Will you be selling it before the month is out?"
Salesman: "I don't know anything about that. If you want HD any of these players (gestures to the half-dozen upconverting players on a shelf nearby) will do the trick."
Me: "None of these players will play HD-DVDs."
Salesman: "Sure they will! These players will make DVDs look as good as cable HD broadcasts!"
Me: (Astonished by this statement, but now resigned) "Thank you for your time."

If this is the kind of information that "Mr.-and-Mrs Joe Average" is getting at their local electronics sales outlets, then I truly do fear for both formats!

 

[Jordan_E]

I find it funny that CC won't sell the players, but sell the discs themselves. That's where I got Goodfellas.

 

[Joseph Bolus]

The impression that I got from this particular salesman was that he actually thought that the upscaling players would play HD-DVDs! (Of course, he could have just been "playing it stupid" to try to get the HDMI upconverting players out the door before Blu-ray hits.)

 

[Rob_Walton]

This is a political campaign in many ways, so it's probably not that surprising to see so much rubbish posted. Unfortunately this has effected the very aspect you seem most interested in reading about: reports from actual users. Many pro HD DVD posters try to present an image of rapid uptake and smooth operation of the players. While just as many BD supporters attempt to cobble every last reported issue together into an image of a format with dyer problems. I fear the same situation will play out once BD hits, with an overnight role reversal taking place. "Are these BD fanboys so blinded by love for Sony that they're willing to overlook all the problems with their new toys?!" and "There's nothing wrong with my Samsung BD player, ipsofacto the reports of issues must be made up by HD DVD lovers."