Super VHS purchase (1 Viewer)

[Rutledge]

Jay,

S-VHS is incapable of meeting the quality of Laserdisc.

Simply put S-VHS is a color under system. If you were to compare the chrominance and luminence S/N ratio of S-VHS and VHS they would be many db's lower than laserdisc.

Also the quality of the prerecorded tapes is dependent on the VCR that recorded it.

I own several pre recorded S-VHS tapes. While they are close in resolution to laserdisc they do not have the vivid colors that laserdisc has.

So there is no way VHS can come close to laserdisc quality.

 

[Ray Kammer]

Well, I did decide to order from Crutchfield and they had a HR-S7800 in the scratch and dent so I ordered it for $169.99. If it's too ruff I'll return it and get the A Stock unit. Thanks for all your help.

 

[Dmitry]

Crystal Vision comb filter with added edge enhancement, and an Elite Video processor that adds about 10% to VHS tape

I'd love to see it add resolution to the resolution pattern on the Video Essentials LD. It would be interesting to see if a VHS (not S-VHS) recording of that pattern made from VE LD using the JVC 9500 would come anywhere close to the original. I think not. 240 lines is 240 lines and I doubt that the finest video processors would be able to take the solid white blob (the part of the pattern that requires more than 240 lines to resolve) and guess how to draw the lines in it.

 

[Rachael B]

The video S/N ratio for the JVC 9500 is 45 db. A Pioneer CLD-S104 does 49 db. 52 db for a CLD-99. 54db for a HLD-X9. 47db for a Panasonic AG-1980 S-VHS recorder. S-VHS colour never looks as good as LD. I can confirm this by watching the difference on twin Panasonic studio monitors recording onto an AG-1980. I don't own an Elite BVP processor but I know someone who does and it will correct colour but won't add resolution. Oh, I have a JVC 9500 too. It's a great VCR but.....

 

[Jay Blair]

Chill, people. You seem to be putting words inside my words. The key word here is "approach", I don't claim anything else. But the right toys do make wonderful improvements and I have lots of toys. And of course with that in mind, I would never say that a well-mastered VHS tape matches a well-mastered laser. Of course they don't and that's why I make no such ridiculous claim--why would you want me to do this? But damn if with the right toys, VHS can't be quite watchable and enjoyable. And first and foremost among those toys is one of the JVC rigs we've been discussing (at least if you want good VHS video on the cheap).

Rachel, and you other doubters, let me know when you're coming to Los Angeles and I'll be glad to invite you to my home for a demonstration. The two VHS films I mentioned and many others have a pop and appeal that certainly matches that of the average laserdisc, just as all you laserdisc fans (and I'm one of them) keep saying that laserdiscs compare favorable to non-anamorphic DVDs (but when you say that you are usually comparing with highend laserdisc gear to relatively lowend DVD gear--o yeah, Rachel, I drool over your laserdisc players compared to my lowly CLD-704), but come on now, look at the S/N of laserdisc and DVD, there is a huge gap, yet we still keep saying how great laserdiscs are and S/N is only a part of the home theater puzzle. I'm here to tell you, VHS tapes can look great too with the right equipment, and I say this despite my lack of support for the format. I wish it would die an ugly death, but it hasn't, and so we crawl along the best we can watching those films we love that can only be purchased at this time on VHS, just as many titles still can't be seen on DVD, so we watch laserdiscs, and lacking laserdiscs we watch VHS tapes (sigh).

And yes, the Elite BVP Plus (don't know about the standard BVP) absolutely does increase resolution, not just add edge enhancement, if set up properly (some of the early models had to be corrected with an internal adjustment to take full advantage of the enhancements).

One final note, VHS tapes frequently look better than the same titles on laserdisc. Anyone have the laserdiscs of Don't Look Now or Pretty Baby? Compare then to the VHS tapes and you'll toss the laserdiscs (well, I still have the laserdisc of Don't Look Now sitting in my cabinet but never watch it). Of course if you have the capability of watching the beautiful French anamorphic DVD of Don't Look Now, the VHS tape will only have appeal on a drunken night of tree climbing.

 

[Scooter]

A little trick I had done with my 3 S-VHS machines. I took them to my local repair guy and had them modified to use standard VHS in S-VHS mode...great improvement and money saving.

Caveat: The tapes you make this way will ONLY PLAY ON YOUR machine or a similarily modified machine!!!!

Don't use this if you plan on recording in 6 Hour Mode. Won't hold up.

All need be done is have the detection post disabled..so the machine sees every cassette as S-VHS.

 

[Dmitry]

Scooter, most of the modern S-VHS decks feature S-VHS ET mode which does excatly that -- record in almost S-VHS quality on regular VHS tapes right out of the box.

 

[Rachael B]

Jay, you have some nice stuff and the Elite BVP does decrease colour smearing and produce a sharper looking picture therefore. It stille doesn't increase resolution. Am I not on the right track here? If your analog player and recorder were good enough, well great, the need for the BVP would lessen and possibly be nearly eliminated. There are a few folks on this forum using BVP's to tweek their home theatre signal. You might be one of them?
A Pioneer 704 LD player is hardly lowly! I used to have a 79 & 702, so I don't have to quess. You should get a CLD-99 or LD-S9 or HLD-X9 while the getting is stille possible. Imagine using an HLD-X9 or S9 as a feeder into a recorder, hmnnn, muy muy excellente.
I hardy have any VHS tapes I didn't make. I have DAMBUSTERS and at most 10 more. I got my fill of VHS in 1986. It's hard to imagine VHS outdoing post 1990 LD but it's possible. The LD's would proably have to be from some of Disney's subsidiaries like Touchstone, Hollywood Pictures, and such. They put out some of the worst LD's I've seen.... hardly better than VHS. Even the mighty X9 can't do anything about blooming and really bad edges.
The thing about S-VHS, that limits it, is it has no more colour capacity than garden variety VHS, just more lines of resolution. Your argument that VHS can be tweeked up is valid. The $89 Hi-Fry VHS units most folks get at Busted Buy or Wal-fart sure could use some tweeking! I forgot where I'm going with this....Yea, if I get invited to Kalafornie to be a quest on Politically Incorrect, I'd love to drop by. I don't know the way to San Jose. Do you have a cement pond? Best wishes!

 

[Jay Blair]

Rachel,

Of course we have a cement pond but due to neighbor complaints we had to get rid of the Playboy bunny emblem at the bottom--OK, we did get rid of the bunny after moving in but not because any of the neighbors were complaining, this is LA after all (one of the outposts in the San Fernando Valley, Boogie Nights territory).

I was sort of kidding about the CLD-704, I'm aware it's not a bottom feeder and in fact was the best Pioneer mode l ever sold in the US outside of the Elite players (equal in video quality to the 703--a B stock unit of which I owned for 6 months, almost all of that time spent in the shop before going back to Pioneer--but the 704 is in fact superior to the 702 model you had because of a better comb filler and neck and neck with the Elite 79; nevertheless, in comparison to your LD-S9 or HLD-X9 I can only imagine what I'm missing...).

I have been imagining using the HLD-X9 or S9 as a feeder into a recorder for the last week since I just ordered the Panasonic E20 from Sears (thank you Sears for price matching the lowest internet price I could find) and am anxiously waiting for the truck to deliver mine to the store (hopefully Tuesday). I already have about 75 DVD-Rs stored up and am going to be making backups of all my laserdiscs and VHS tapes (still have exactly 100 laserdiscs, down from my high of just over 300, and a couple dozen VHS tapes). So why don't I get one of the last S9 models to make the dubs? Money. I can afford it, but I also want to retire before I'm 80, and I already spend too much (over 800 DVDs and counting). Everything I've read indicates the E20 can make excellant copies from laserdisc, which hopefully means they'll almost match the quality I've been getting directly from the 704, and this has been good enough for the last 5 or 6 years.

I also still need to get a better TV. Right now I have an eight year old 53" Sony "S" series set and obviously the current HD-capable models will shame it. I've also tweaked the Sony behind the ears as far as it'll tweak without ISF calibration (covering the interior in Duvetyne did wondrous things) and I've just been waiting for the HD standards to get straightened out, which since this could now be years away, I've decided to wait for one more generation to come out and then will take the plunge (at this time the HX model of the 57" Toshibas looks to be the winner, but Sony will always get careful consideration).

Having said all that, I also have a new 14" Toshiba in my bedroom with a component hookup to a Malata N996, and this set looks beautiful but is only marginally better than what I get from the far more primitive (and defect amplifying) 53" Sony in the living room, hooked up using S-video to another Malata and using all the toys to boost it. And the Malata also takes full advantage of anamorphic DVDs on my non-anamorphic TVs because of its X-Y scaling capabilities.

Well, I can't argue further with you about the BVP, I haven't done any testing of the video resolution boost other than eyeballing the differences, but if it isn't boosting resolution, then it sure is the best edge enhancement device ever made, on top of all its other benefits. Elite Video claims it can boost resolution by 17%; I'd say it does about 10% before the artifacts become objectionable to me (and though in some ways I'm a video fanatic, I can probably live with more artifacts of whatever nature than most in the Home Theater community as long as the basic image integrity--to my eye--remains intact, which means my system is going to be overboosted by the standards of many; after all, before laserdiscs I spent a good part of my life watching classic and foreign films in revival houses and University "Bijous" with prints that more often than not were sad, and this has kept me from worrying about being a video or audio purist).

Sorry for all the rambling and getting off topic. I'm really just trying to defend the underdog, even one so Mike Tysonesque as VHS tape.

 

[Rachael B]

Jay, if'ins ya'all gots sum uf them thar pink chickuns in yer yard, I's mite tiddy ovur... I think you said it the Elite secures edges, it prevents bleeding, and makes thangs look better, but it can't add LINES of resolution. I like to make the most of VHS when I use it, which isn't often.
I'd like to transfer my S-VHS home videos to DVD but the recorders are going to have to be cheaper and better before I'll make a move. I have some LD's with rot that the X9 will play quite well that I'd like to put on DVD, but not that many. With my players, it would be rather daft to move LD's to DVD!
I got one of those Malata 996 players too. I only use it for out of region titles. I only have 4 so far. I keep watching region 2, U.K. for DAMBUSTERS to appear. I doubt it will show up here because of the black dog's nombre.... It's my favourite Anglish film. Best wishes!

 

[Jay Blair]

Rachel, funny you should mention red chicks, because besides that wet bunny, the roost had a red driveway and painted over pink walls when we moved in--like I said, Boogie Nights territory, and I guess the chicks popped a few paint chips as time slunk by. And yeah, we got lots a vittels n da gard'n patch, more an u'un an Jethro too cud shake a Balabuska at.

I now buy about a quarter of my DVDs from other regions. Just got the region 3 anamorphic release of Pulp Fiction a few days ago. What an incredible difference. I'm also still in the process of upgrading a large number of non-anamorphic DVDs to anamorphic DVDs available very cheap in Australia. One other prime example, any fan of Vertigo has just got to check out the anamorphic PAL release on a Malata compared to the non-anamorphic US release.

Sure, cheaper would be better for the DVD recorders, and I'm well aware that by the end of next year the E20 will likely be little more than a doorstop, with the then current replacement model selling for under $500 and have loads more features and fewer digital artifacts (why do you think I'm not buying my first choice, the much more expensive Pioneer Elite DVR-7000--far too much to pay for a format that has so far to go) and the DVD-R blanks will be be selling for a buck too. Still, I do feel that the E20 (sight unseen, but after a lot of reading on the internet and elsewhere) will do what I need it to do, take analog source material with 425 or fewer lines of resolution and faithfully copy it to DVD-R discs with 500 to 540 line capability--and no, I'm not implying that the E20 will add lines of resolution, just that when copying source material to a format with more lines of resolution than the original, the quality of the copy is allowed to at least approach the quality of the original, and maybe even match it to the naked eye. I have no need to copy any digital sources. Don't even own a camcorder, digital or otherwise.

In some ways the copy may be better than the original if the E20 has a better comb filter than either my JVC 9500 or the Pioneer 704 or the Crystal Vision VPS1, or even by using a combination of them since it is cheap and easy to convert S-video to composite and use more than one comb filter at a time. (I've been experimenting with some success using cheap but very nice $5.25 converters from Parts Express and taking S-video out from either the Pioneer or JVC and running the S-video cable into the converter and then into the composite input on the Crystal Vision and then S-video back out from there into the Elite BVP, and of course then I have a Camelot Excalibur powered S-video cable to boost the long run of cables--like I said, lots of toys, and lots of tweaking).

It all boils down to these things always getting better and cheaper, and damn if I don't have a tax refund coming and this bug up my...petunia. And I just sold my CLD-3090 for $75, so at least I have a downpayment on the credit card bill until I can pay the rest off with the tax refund.

Now, let me bring this all back on track. DVD recorders may be the best reason I can think of to get one of the 7000 or 9000 series JCV VCRs. They have excellant noise reduction circuitry in addition to everything else and put out a very clean signal. DVD recorders will be as common as VCRs in a few years, and all those VHS and S-VHS tapes will need to be transferred. The quality of output from a normal VCR just isn't going to cut it when we start copying those precious episodes of NYPD Blue--or whatever is unlikely to be released commercially on DVD--over to DVD-R or DVD+R or DVD-RW or DVD+RW or whatever format wins out. (I'm betting on DVD-R/DVD-RW myself, even though I'm getting a unit that does DVD-R/DVD-RAM).

Well, enough. It's way past my bedtime.

 

[John W L]

Jay,
Greatly appreciate the literate, near-poetic defense of the sometimes shockingly good VHS, which is unfortunately becoming increasingly dumbed-down (which was possible, after all!). For those who like myself want someday to put irreplaceable (S)VHS and LD onto DVD for longevity, don't wait too long to buy a VCR. After several years of making simultaneous improvements and price cuts to their S-VHS units, it seems that JVC, Panasonic, and Mitsubishi are continuing with the price cuts but removing the improvements.
JVC, said the manager of a store that carries it along with Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic and other brands, has this year dropped the adjustable/tilting heads from all but the 9900, making the 9XXX series even more desirable than the 7XXX series. (Which made me especially happy to have just ordered it last week from J&R for the now-great price of $399.)
Panasonic's PVVS 4821 is practically worthless, according to several posts on www.audioreview.com most of which say the defunct 4820 was much better. The only place I can find the 4820 is at Crutchfield's scratch 'n' dent, and they want more than for the 4821 since the 4820 cost much more new. More handwriting on the VHS wall: This "top-of-the-line" Panasonic (4821) is now made in Indonesia and apparently looks and sounds like a Kmart no-name. (The store manager that said JVC had dumbed-down everything except the 9900 would not recommend the 4821s that were stacked in boxes at our feet.)
Mitsubishi's dead 790 unit gets great ratings on audioreview.com but it's been replaced by the 776, whose rating aren't as good. A trip to a Mitsubishi dealer last night added this manager's recommendation: "Yeah, we've got the 776, but the 790s gone. This D-VHS is now the top of the line. Get the 790 if you can find it. It's much better than the 776."
Depending on how well the JVC 9900 works, I'll consider a Sony 1000 or Panasonic 1980 -- but it'd be great if those units were updated. Reason I wanted a Panasonic too was to scan hundreds of tapes I made at LP mode. Do Mitsubishis, like JVCs, purposefully blank out LP scans? JVC did that close to 20 years ago because they weren't "supporting" LP mode after their introduction of EP.
BTW, those looking at the 3XXX JVC line shouldn't expect much on a large screen. But tapes made on the 3500 look much better when played back on the (non-ET) 7100.
PS: How does someone find the coupons on Yahoo for Crutchfield, etc.
Thanks!

 

[Jon Cielo]

I just did a search for "crutchfield coupon". If I purchase from any online store, I always try searching for a coupon. This coupon in particular saves $25 off a purchase >$250.

 

[StephenMSmith]

Can anyone here comment on the current JVC S-VHS models vs. the HR-7300, which I still use. Is there any significant improvements to recording/playback quality (excluding S-VHS ET, which I would never use)?

My unit does have the infamous "white streak" problem that plagued JVC's at the time, but I've learned to live with it since it's sporadic and I only use the VCR for time-shifting. Has this issue been permanently resolved in the JVC's?

Thanks,

Steve

 

[Jay Blair]

I had the HR-7300 (still have it actually sitting in storage) before replacing it with the 9500. I was fond of the 7300 since it replaced a really bad Panasonic S-VHS machine, and the 7300 was among the best home units of its generation, but starting with the 9500 (which was JVCs replacement for the 7300--or maybe a 7400 since I never remember reading anything about such a model and don't know if they were even produced) several features were added that made the 9500 significantly better, including much better noise reduction and greatly improved edge enhancement and a TBC to reduce jitter.

The 9500 to 9900 series machines are a tremendous step up from the 7300, as are the 7500 to 7800 series models, which have similar video enhancements but do not have quite as good video quality as the 9000 models, they also have less digital memory (2megs vs. 4megs) for special effects (scanning speeds and still frame will not be quite as smooth) and with fewer editing capabilities and seem to be more cheaply constructed. I wasn't aware of the change in the adjustable/tilting heads for the 7900 model. Based on what John is saying about that, I would probably avoid this model and go for the 7800 or a 9800 or 9900 model if I was replacing my unit. Starting with the 9600 models the 9000 series also added ghost reduction circuitry which I've heard works very well to reduce ghosting on broadcast signals that support the technology.

The recording capability of the newer JCV units is about the same as the 7300, it's the playback capability that has been greatly enhanced; in other words, tapes you made on your 7300 when played on the newer units will look very close to the quality of the tapes actually recorded on the the newer units. This is why pre-recorded VHS tapes look so good.

 

[StephenMSmith]

Thanks for the info, Jay. S-VHS prices are so low (comparatively) now that I think I might upgrade. What is the significance of adjustable/tilting heads?

Also, so you've never experienced the "white streak" problem w/your 9500? Your HR-7300 surely had it so you probably know what I mean with "white streaks".

Steve

 

[Jay Blair]

Don't know much about the tilt/adjustable heads other than comments I've read that they give improved performance and maybe improve longevity. JVC is definitely trying to compete in the VHS and S-VHS price wars and the fact that they have gone a cheaper route with the 7900 worries me(this already started after the 7600, with cheaper construction but with no loss in video quality that I'm aware of). But again, I don't know much about this and maybe there is no need to be concerned. Hopefully someone with more technical know how than mine can step in here.

I heard a lot about the white streak problem with the 7300 but never experienced it myself. I also have not seen it with my 9500 nor do I remember reading of any problems with this model or the subsequent 9000 series models.

 

[Rachael B]

Hey Jay, I'm baaaaack....
Stephen, I know something about the white streaks. My 7100 didn't have it. My 5200 doesn't have it. I think it was a 5300/7300 and 5400/7400 phenomenon. I had the 7400. I got tired of it and gave it to my nephew. He doesn't notice the white streaks, apparently, or if he does he doesn't care. Anyway, he's never complained about the free VCR he got. I put it in the shop twice for the problem to no avail.
The good news is that the white streak thang is a playback problem. If you get a newer player you won't see it. My 7400 made great tapes, it just wasn't any good at playing them back. I used to use the 5200 for playback. I had the two of them hooked up on a JVC JX-300 switcher for dubbing in either direction back then. That must have been atleast 5 years ago...?
I now have the 5200, 7500, 9500, and 9800. None has the video dandruff playback syndrome. I don't know what caused it, but technicans said some processing part was to blame. I wonder if it was apparent doing regular VHS? I so seldom did garden variety VHS that I don't know or can't remember.
Jay, I try to encourage folks to go with the 9800/9900. I'm with you, now is the time to get a great VCR if you're going to have one at all. Let me count the reasons, maximize VHS payback for playback's sake, for dubbing's sake to DVD-R.... Those two will do. I feel the same about LD too. That's why I got the HLD-X9 and LD-S9, to maximize the format. Alot of folks seem hard pressed, or reluctant, to spend more than what a 3900 or 5900 costs though on "lowly" VHS mah-chenes... I remember when an ordnary hi-fi VHS deck cost more than a 9900 does now and tht was in more valuable 80's dollars. I see the 9800/9900 as a relative bargain.
DVD has spoil't us all and me thinks it's time to maximize our analog formats or forget them. I'd be alot less happy with most of my LD's if I had to watch them on a CLD-S104.
I also use the 9500 and sometimes the 9800 for feeders to my AG-1980 to make my cheesy community TV show. I'm about finished with a new episode. If it wasn't for making video, I wouldn't have so many VCR's. Mi es la gata del disco grande! Recuerdos mi compadres!

 

[Phil Nichols]

"Message Deleted"

 

[Phil Nichols]

Jay,

I agree completely with you about VHS. I use a Sony SLV-R1000 with an Elite 58" 16X9 RPTV using Nordost Super Optix S-Video cables to optmize several widescreen VHS and Super-VHS movies I own. (Can't rent them - rental places only rent Pan & Scan versions.)

If you get contrast, black level, tint, color saturation, sharpness (not too much), detail (in the RPTV Service Mode), and DNR filters set well (.....plus my R1000 has a Faroudja digital sine filter and adaptive image control built in.), VHS widescreens from good digitally restored masters can look darn good without color bleeding or noise! I actually enjoy watching VHS classics - especially great old films that may not even be on LD like Michner's Caravans, Michner's Hawaii, and Lion of the Desert. (Please enlighten me which of these may be on LD that I think aren't!)

I gave a new JVC 9800 back to the dealer after a few days trial though, in favor of a new R1000. I can't see why folks insist on buying the new JVC's with their lighter than air build quality when they can get a superb AG-1980 or R1000 in like new condition on eBay for $300 to $450 - doesn't make any purchase value sense to me.

Your AG-1980 is one of the finest VCR's ever built so you see VHS images like most others never have. You may be biased into thinking VHS and Super-VHS is getting short changed by HT enthusiasts - as I do!

I feel that a HT setup should contain several video sources in optimized configuration, so you can watch whatever you want whenever you want the best that it can be.