Star Wars: The Last Jedi discussion thread(Warning: Spoilers!) (1 Viewer)

[Johnny Angell]

in Episode 1,The Darth Maul battle between Obi Wan, and Qui Gon-A Sith against two fully trained Jedi-is one of my favorite Star Wars scenes of any of the films. It is just so amazing to watch.

I recall that the score during that scene is also outstanding.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I recall that the score during that scene is also outstanding.

Yes, absolutely. Whatever the faults of the prequels, John Williams never did anything less than outstanding work, and Duel of the Fates is one of his best cues in the whole saga.

This is one of the reasons that I've been comfortable doing pre-orders of the new saga films' soundtracks before seeing them, because I know with Williams composing, that's a score I'm going to want even if the film it goes with isn't good. Of course, the films have been great, but even if they weren't, his work is always reliably terrific.

 

[benbess]

Duel of the Fates is awesome....

John Williams: "The great sword fight at the end of the film - the decision to make that choral was just the result of my thinking that it should have a ritualistic or quasi-religious feeling, and the introduction of a chorus might be just the thing. ... [T]he medium of chorus and orchestra would give us a sense that we're in a big temple."

Here are the lyrics:
Korah Matah Korah Rahtahmah
Korah Rahtamah Yoodhah Korah
Korah Syahdho Rahtahmah Daanyah.....etc.

These words originated in the medieval Welsh poem Cad Goddeu (The Battle of the Trees). The text was translated into English by Robert Graves, and published in 1948 as part of The White Goddess: A Historical Grammar of Poetic Myth. It was then translated into Sanskrit. John Williams selected lines 32-35:
Under the tongue root
a fight most dread,
and another raging
behind in the head

But check out this video that gives an alternate translation!

 

[Simon Massey]

I like this quote from Johnson in the new Art of Star Wars book

“It was a little nerve-wracking going into a Star Wars movie and have the big lesson....be the value of running away, the value that heroism isn’t brashness....That brashness is very much a young person’s point of view. It would be disingenuous and wrong to have the only perspective that mattered in this movie be one of youth. Inevitably, another perspective on heroism had to enter into this movie because of the legacy characters, because of Leia, because of Luke.”

And a further comment in the book (not Johnson)

“If Campbell’s “hero’s journey” is a reflection of..the journey beyond the innocence of childhood into the wider world of knowledge and responsibility, then what comes after the “happily ever after?” What of the middle-aged hero, who now faces inevitable mortality and loss?”

 

[Simon Massey]

Another good quote given some of the backlash

“What is the value of the myths you grew up with ? What is the value of throwing those away and doing something new and fresh? Ultimately my allegiance has come down with Rey. But it’s not that simple...Yoda expresses some of Kylo’s same sentiments. There’s also a sin in venerating the past so much that you’re enslaved to it. For me, it’s not just a meta thing of talking about Star Wars - how much do you copy what came before versus throwing it away? It’s very much a huge thing in life that I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about. It felt very germane, something very interesting and prudent to explore right now.”

 

[benbess]

A nice 5-minute video about how Old Ben has PTSD....He flashes back to many moments in the prequels as he talks. I think there are good elements in each of the prequels. Some of those moments are found here in this video.

 

[TravisR]

Yes, absolutely. Whatever the faults of the prequels, John Williams never did anything less than outstanding work, and Duel of the Fates is one of his best cues in the whole saga.

When Williams brings Duel back in Revenge Of The SIth, it's a wonderful moment. It gives something that you know is monumental in the Star Wars universe even more gravity.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

When Williams brings Duel back in Revenge Of The SIth, it's a wonderful moment. It gives something that you know is monumental in the Star Wars universe even more gravity.

I think there may even be a moment in the Phantom Menace bonus features where you see Lucas and Williams talking about the Duel theme (perhaps from when Williams was just beginning to write it), and I think Lucas said that it was his hope that it would be something that could come back at the end of the third film. I remember thinking it was really cool that they might have planned doing that so far in advance, hopefully I'm not just making this up!

 

[TravisR]

I think there may even be a moment in the Phantom Menace bonus features where you see Lucas and Williams talking about the Duel theme (perhaps from when Williams was just beginning to write it), and I think Lucas said that it was his hope that it would be something that could come back at the end of the third film. I remember thinking it was really cool that they might have planned doing that so far in advance, hopefully I'm not just making this up!

It sounds cool so I'll just assume you're right.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

It sounds cool so I'll just assume you're right.

If only real life worked that way!

 

[Joe Wong]

Been doing some “fanciful” thinking the last few days about some of the ways TLJ could have taken on the palette provided by TFA to move the series forward. So, if you would allow me to indulge, here are some directions, plot-wise, that might have made TLJ more interesting or layered. Not meant to be fan-service, but to add richness to the story and characters. Those of you who love TLJ already probably won’t be swayed, and it’s only one person’s angle (mine, of course, but remember, the palette is wide open!).

(Disclaimer: I'm a fan of SW mainly from a movie-enthusiast's perspective. Never read anything in the EU / Legends series, nor watched anything outside the 8 main episodes / Rogue One, so I don’t know much about the history/lore of the SW universe. Also, not sure how old Kylo or Rey are, but I’m assuming maybe Kylo is about 6-8 years older than Rey?)

Rey’s background:
Rey is the only child of a couple who befriended/aided Luke in the first few years after ROTJ. The parents are ordinary folk who are not Force-sensitive, but became good friends with Luke. When Rey was born, Luke was asked to be a godparent, but he declined. The parents were disappointed, and Luke felt guilt, which led to several years of estrangement where they didn’t cross paths.

Rey showed signs of Force potential as a young child, which alarmed her parents and they sought out Luke to see if he could train her/keep it under control. They arrived/were present on the night Kylo and the Knights of Ren attacked and killed Luke’s students, and also killed Rey’s parents in the process.

Devastated, Luke goes into seclusion, but not before arranging for Rey to be left on Jakku, thinking she would be safe there. Rey is not told/aware of her parents' fate...

10-15 years go by, which is when TFA begins…

As TLJ starts, Luke resents being pulled back into the wider conflict (shades of Michael Corleone?), but accepts Rey as his student.

Snoke’s background:
A powerful Force-user who bears a grudge against Leia or Han for a past slight (maybe even a close acquaintance of the Hutt family? Revenge!). He takes advantage of the power vacuum after ROTJ to rally the remnants of the Empire and assemble some new allies. He sees the vulnerability in Ben Solo and lures him to the dark side. His eventual aim: to destroy Leia/Han by using their own son against them.

The Last Jedi
As a plot development during (midway through?) the film, have Stormtroopers bring a captured Resistance person to Kylo and Snoke, who still want to destroy (beside the Resistance) the last Jedi. The captive is force-tortured with the question, “Where is Luke Skywalker?”, and eventually answers, with his/her last breath, “Ahch-To.”

This leads to a frantic last half/third as both Resistance and First Order race to Ahch-To, with a spectacular finale amongst the islands and raging oceans of the planet…Luke is the hunted, but also a hunter...He cannot hide anymore. The "last" Jedi is forced to fight.



This could be fleshed out further given more time (eg., what happens with Leia, Poe and Finn? How did Maz obtain Luke’s sabre?). Sure, it's not airtight, but the aim is to add some depth to Rey and Snoke, given their nobody/unexplained history status is one of the main reasons behind a lot of viewers’ disappointment. And who knows, maybe JJ will explain everything in Ep IX anyway!

Thanks for letting my imagination run wild (crazy?)

 

[Tim Glover]

Another good quote given some of the backlash

“What is the value of the myths you grew up with ? What is the value of throwing those away and doing something new and fresh? Ultimately my allegiance has come down with Rey. But it’s not that simple...Yoda expresses some of Kylo’s same sentiments. There’s also a sin in venerating the past so much that you’re enslaved to it. For me, it’s not just a meta thing of talking about Star Wars - how much do you copy what came before versus throwing it away? It’s very much a huge thing in life that I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about. It felt very germane, something very interesting and prudent to explore right now.”

Wow.. love this quote Simon! I mean that is truly rich. Thx for sharing that.

 

[Edwin-S]

“What is the value of the myths you grew up with ? What is the value of throwing those away and doing something new and fresh?

It's an interesting question that TLJ fails monumentally in answering.

 

[Edwin-S]

It's like the "Spaced Leia" scene. I'm not necessarily against her being able to use the Force, but the entire scene is so poorly executed from start to finish that it becomes "new" but certainly not "fresh". Unless people think it is new and fresh for "Princess Leia" to let all of her friends and comrades die while she thinks only to save herself.

 

[Tom-G]

View attachment 42858
(Source of and credit for this meme go to the MovieWeb Facebook page. Or at least that's where I picked it up from.)

Only it didn't happen quite like that. Kenobi dueled Anakin and Yoda dueled Palpatine. Total fanboy meme.

 

[Simon Massey]

It's an interesting question that TLJ fails monumentally in answering.

Id say it answers it pretty clearly but then that’s why I like it since the film pretty much rejects Kylo’s notion of burning down the past etc and shows Rey learning to accept her past but also move on, the theme of “balance” in pretty much every part of the film is there even if you don’t like the execution of it.

 

[Edwin-S]

Id say it answers it pretty clearly but then that’s why I like it since the film pretty much rejects Kylo’s notion of burning down the past etc and shows Rey learning to accept her past but also move on, the theme of “balance” in pretty much every part of the film is there even if you don’t like the execution of it.

I find it hard to pay attention to the themes in a film when poor execution of its supposed ideas keeps getting in the way. For example, I'm still trying to figure out what the main character actually learned in the Dark Side's Fun House. I mean there was the ideal point to really learn something about her past and show (not tell) why she was like she was, but all we see is fun house hall-of-mirror images of her. It was terrible in explaining anything about her to the audience, but the VFX team must have had a ball putting it together.

No. What we end up getting to see is her blandly accepting some tossed out exposition from a really trustworthy source; a guy who betrays everyone in his life: his mother, his father, his Jedi teacher and his Sith mentor. What is worse is that while "Dr. Freud" is venting about her coming to terms with who her parents were, we never learn anything about why he hated his own father so much that he could murder him while looking him straight in the eye.

It is stuff like that that doesn't allow me to see any theme of balance in this film. All I see is a film that drunkenly reels from one "revelation" to another. It is the filmic equivalent of a Jackson Pollock painting and that is not a compliment.

 

[Johnny Angell]

It's like the "Spaced Leia" scene. I'm not necessarily against her being able to use the Force, but the entire scene is so poorly executed from start to finish that it becomes "new" but certainly not "fresh". Unless people think it is new and fresh for "Princess Leia" to let all of her friends and comrades die while she thinks only to save herself.

IMHO, Leia was seriously wounded by the explosion. She didn’t save herself immediately, and when she did, she barely had the strength to save herself. She is in an extreme environment. Remember she had to be replaced.

This the first time she’s used to force, to my recollection.

 

[Robert Crawford]

It's like the "Spaced Leia" scene. I'm not necessarily against her being able to use the Force, but the entire scene is so poorly executed from start to finish that it becomes "new" but certainly not "fresh". Unless people think it is new and fresh for "Princess Leia" to let all of her friends and comrades die while she thinks only to save herself.

Wow as others have stated, I can’t agree with your slant on Leia letting her comrades die as she was clearly injured and barely was able to save herself by using her Force abilities.

 

[MielR]

This the first time she’s used to force, to my recollection.

She was able to "connect" with Luke while he was dangling under Cloud City in ESB, and after the death star explosion in ROTJ. I always thought of those 2 instances as her using the force.