Pre/Pro with Training wheels... (1 Viewer)

[Alex Yang]

Hi guys,

As most of you already know, I have a DENON AVR-5803 on order and should be arriving within the week... I was also in the market for Pre/Pro separates as well...

Long story short, I was about to pull the trigger on ANTHEM's AVM-20 for around $2500 but then I got an offer for Denon AVR-5803 for only a few hundred more DEFINATELY under $3K... At this price point I considered the DENON as a Quality PRE/PRO with training wheels so that ONE day when I learn how to appreciate separates more, I could take off the training wheels and use the POWER of Denon as a PRE/PRO and use an outboard AMP...

I ONLY pulled the trigger because of the price that I was able to get the DENON for, if it was anywhere here the $4300 MSRP, I would be a HAPPY Anthem onwer right now...

Love to know your opinion, what do you think?


Thanks,




-Alex

PS. Yes I'm looking for approval!!!

 

[Michael Lee]

Hey Alex-
You have my total approval....although I don't think that counts for much! I have a 5803 whereas I am using a 5x300 watt external amp with it. I have been a long time Denon user and really prefer their sound. I have tried others in the past: Sony, Pioneer, Marantz, Yamaha, Outlaw, Onkyo, etc. When Denon does finally roll out their pre/pro, I may go with that. Right now, I found that the feature set and the sound of this receiver, especially with the external amplifier I already had, suited my needs perfectly.

Good luck with your new 5803 when it arrives and let me know how you like it!

 

[Martice]

How does it sound to you? That's a large investment for a receiver that you're going to eventually turn into a pre/pro. Think about this. When you get your amplification you'll have at least 2 channels sitting there rotting because you're bypassing them. If you spent less than $1,000.00 for your reciever I could see the upgrade but you paid a lot of money just to bypass the amplification. Considering the amplification in the Denon is as good as it should be at $3,000, upgrading the amplification should be far from your mind as you sit in your captain's chair and enjoy the music/movies. Now if you are not enjoying the music/movies you should be investigating your return policy on your receiver and asking yourself why in the hell did you try to buy an all in one gift in a box with hopes that the pre/pro section and the amplification would be tailor made to your liking in the first place.

If you have the funds to justify wasting your internal amps that's fine too.

 

[Alex Yang]

Matrice,
Thanks for the reply... I'm looking at it this way... I paid for and bought a $$$$ Denon Pre/Pro called the AVR-5803... Which just happens to include for a limited time FREE amps!!! Act now before our price jumps back up the $4300MSRP...
Since the Anthem AVM20 Pre/Pro I was getting was just about the same price anyway, (My budget for pre/pro was around $2500k) and then I was going to pay $$$ to buy a separate MULTICHANNEL amp ($1500~ $2000) comes out to the same price as Denon's MSRP for $4300...
I agree with you 200% if I had spent $4300 MSRP INSTEAD of the price I got it for, then YEAH I would be "wasting" my hard earned cash for an AMP section I didn't intend to use...
Since, I DID get the price, I consider the AMP section free, and that I paid for and got a GREAT quality Pre/Pro for the same amount of money I would have spent on Anthem...
Thanks,
-Alex
PS If anyone knows of a better deal, I'll be more than happy to part ways with Denon as I've haven't received it yet and so I'm not MARRIED to it...

 

[Ron-P]

Alex, sounds like you landed a great deal on the Denon.
Receivers are great, for starters, IMO. I wanted a surround sound receiver but did not want to spend mega dollars because it was only a starter until I could save up for separates. So, I landed a Marantz SR5000 for $600, new. It had what I mainly wanted, pre-outs and dts.
Now that I have landed 3 Adcoms, one each for the mains and one for the center, I plan on saving up a bit more and buying a 4th for the surrounds. Then, the Marantz will only be used for a pre-amp until I can replace it.
My whole goal when I started was to go to separates, just could not afford it back then, so the receiver was a quick fix, so to speak, for surround sound.
I just think for the amount of money you are spending and what your future goals are, separates are the way to go. If If had 2,500+ I would not even think receiver.
If you are not set on buying only new gear you could land a very sweet seperates rig for that amount of coin.
Peace Out~

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

"How does it sound to you? That's a large investment for a receiver that you're going to eventually turn into a pre/pro."
Martice,
Name ONE pre/pro on the market with the abilities of the 5803...just one. It's not possible, Martice. I'm not just talking about features either. The processing power is only equalled by that of another flagship receiver, the 49TX from Pioneer or the Lexicon MC-12. The feature list is astronomical, the DAC structure is cutting edge, twin inputs for high resolution, multi channel inputs (so you don't have to make a choice between SACD and DVD-A), and most importantly...the sound quality WILL, IMO, equal or better that of equally or some higher priced pre/pros. There are other attributes.
"Think about this. When you get your amplification you'll have at least 2 channels sitting there rotting because you're bypassing them."
If you eliminate the stress from a couple of the internal amplifiers, the remaining channels will perform at a higher level than they would if all channels were being driven. This is a good thing.
"....upgrading the amplification should be far from your mind as you sit in your captain's chair and enjoy the music/movies."
Not necessarily. I believe that flagship ownership is not the step before seperates...it is the same as owning seperates. Better amplifiers, more sound. The same if you had a seperates system with 100 wattsx5 and decided to upgrade to 200x7.
"Now if you are not enjoying the music/movies you should be investigating your return policy on your receiver and asking yourself why in the hell did you try to buy an all in one gift in a box with hopes that the pre/pro section and the amplification would be tailor made to your liking in the first place."
Believe me Martice, Alex will be a VERY happy Denon owner when his 5803 arrives and is parked in the rack. I'm sorry you have a hard time being happy for him. Flaghip ownership is alot of fun, and something you don't spend alot of time thinking about what could've been
"If you have the funds to justify wasting your internal amps that's fine too."
The amps in the flagship receivers are good amps. They are not out of this world, but they will perform at the same or beyond the level of any 7 channel out of the box solution you can find on the market from $1-$1.5k.
That's says something, IMO.
Alex,
Congratulations on your receiver. It's a fantastic choice and I would be as happy as can be if I were you. No need to think about seperates. You have a receiver that will perform at the same level as anything else in the price range...and IMO, much higher pricewise.
Jeremy

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

"I just think for the amount of money you are spending and what your future goals are, separates are the way to go. If If had 2,500+ I would not even think receiver."

Who knows Ron. Once you have your money saved up and you are about to pull the trigger on a pre/pro, why not give a flagship receiver a fair shake?

It can't hurt. Obviously, Obi has the means to buy a seperate pre/pro...but he uses a flagship receiver. There are others.

The line has been all buy eliminated. If you are a die hard pre/pro guy and a seperates owner pre year 2000, I can understand the hesitation to even give a receiver a shot. But if you can keep an open mind, and come from the receiver camps...it's not as different as you may think.


Jeremy

 

[Martice]

Believe me Martice, Alex will be a VERY happy Denon owner when his 5803 arrives and is parked in the rack. I'm sorry you have a hard time being happy for him. Flaghip ownership is alot of fun, and something you don't spend alot of time thinking about what could've been

I hope he's happy as well. Unfortunately, it seems that you're looking for a place to vent and came to the wrong place. Anyone who reads my initial post will see that I never judged his equipment, taste or his frame of mind but you judged me as being some kind of sour puss with receiver envy or something similar.

I will say this though. Have you ever heard Alex's system? Have you ever asked him his taste in music? Have you even asked him about the rest of his system? If so then I guess you would know that he'd be happy with his Denon. If you can't answer yes to the above questions then how do you know if Alex is going to be happy with his Denon? That's the golden rule here Jeremy and you with 1055 posts should know that it's all up to the individuals taste and I'm willing to bet that you don't know diddly squat about what Alex likes except that he has the same receiver as you.

 

[Martice]

Now if you are not enjoying the music/movies you should be investigating your return policy on your receiver and asking yourself why in the hell did you try to buy an all in one gift in a box with hopes that the pre/pro section and the amplification would be tailor made to your liking in the first place.

Hi Alex. As you responded to my intitial response, it seemed that you took my opinion as it was intended. Based on your response, you sounded as you understood what I was trying to say which was that you should be enjoying the Denon as is, especially with all of the money you shelled out. I say, give the Denon a chance and see what you think after a while. If you're not happy with the output it's your perogative to purchase whatever you want but already thinking that you may possibly need amplification before you even sit with the unit is asking for wallet trouble. Unless of course you don't mind flinging the funds around and can afford it.

 

[Alex Yang]

Jeremy!
Dude, thank you SO VERY much for coming to my defense! Not that I really needed it... Read on... Much appreciated!!!)
************************************************** ********************
Matrice,
I definately intend to enjoy the receiver "as is" as you so perfectly pointed out!! And I wanted the rest of you guys to know that the spirit of this ORIGINAL thread is to see if my "description/analogy" of Pre/Pro with training wheels (AMPs built-in) is accurate or not...
I really didn't mean to incite an argument and Matrice, please do understand that more than likely I'm going to be 200% satisfied with my purchase BUT in the "UNLIKELY" event I dont (remote) possibility I still have the option of going to separate amps... Would I have still chosen this route at $4300??? Hell NO!!! But @ $2800 only $300 more that the ANTHEM AVM20 Hell YES, it's a risk I'm willing to take...
The 2nd reason then for this post is because I have NOT taken delivery of this unit yet, it should be arriving VERY VERY shortly and so I still have time to "return" or "resell via EBAY" the DENON for something else, IF it there is SOMETHING/ANYTHING better???
I've looked at the following:
Pioneer 49
Denon 4802
Outlaw 950
Anthem AVM20
Onkyo 898
Onkyo 989
Davis Lab Processor One
I've auditioned:
Anthem AVM20
Pioneer 49
Denon 5803
Anthem being TOPS in sound wise and my first choice with the DENON an EXTREMELY close 2nd with INTERNAL amps, and PIONEER 49 distant 3rd....
I'll be primaraly using this system for HomeTheater (Gladiator, The Rock, Amegeddon, etc...) and it should perform double duty for when I listen to Classical, Chamber music, Top 40 (distant 2nd), and Country music.
I have Mirage speakers ALL around OM-5 OM-C2 and OM-R2 (X4) for FULL 7.1.... Plus Senheisser HD600 for Dolby Headphones (purchased specifically for this!!!!)
Finally Matrice, I think the tone of this and other "recent" threads took a slightly "different" tone ONLY because some comments were made like "I dont' understand why someone would purposes "WASTE" money by purcahsing a receiver ONLY to BUY a SERPARATE amp and turning off their internal AMPS"
The tone of that phrase was what probably irked Jeremy and honestly myself just a little bit... I do UNDERSTAND and TRULY TRULY know where you're coming from OTHERWISE I wouldn't have bothered to go the Anthem AVM-20 route at ALL...
Ron P, said it best
"Alex, sounds like you landed a great deal on the Denon. "
If I didn't get the Denon at this price I wouldn't have bothered but @ ONLY $300 difference it was WAY WAY too tempting an offer to pass up...
Thanks again to ALL for all you input, your insights have really helped me out a lot!!!
Cheers!
-Alex

 

[Michael Lee]

Actually, I said that I already had the 5 channels of external amplification. Later I chose to buy the 5803 as a pre/pro predominantly (using only two channels for the surround backs). I am sure I would be very happy with the internal amps by themselves...I have the upgraded 5800 hooked up in another room and that sounds pretty damn good too!

 

[Dalton]

The amps in the flagship receivers are good amps. They are not out of this world, but they will perform at the same or beyond the level of any 7 channel out of the box solution you can find on the market from $1-$1.5k

Jeremy,
I have heard the 5803 and it's internal amps are pretty good for a receiver. But to say they can match up to a $1k to $1.5k separate amp is an optimistic view of their quality to say the least. I have heard several amps in that price range that far exceed the 5803 in sound quality and dynamic range. Just a few off the top of my head:

Parasound 2205
Sherbourn 5/1500a
ATI 1505
Acurus 200x5

All of these amps are superior to the 5803's amp section. They should be. You cram all that stuff in a receiver and expect it to outperform a separate amp that is dedicated to providing POWER only? Not likely. While i agree that the 5803 would be a fine choice for a pre-amp, adding one of the above amps would be a worthwhile improvement IMO. Just ask Obi what he thought when he added an Acurus 200x3 to his Pioneer 49tx.


Regards,
Dalton

 

[Todd Schnell]

Alex,
I think your decision was very logical.
I recently did the exact same thing.
Got a great deal on the 5803 at a local B&M that I have dealt with before with a double warranty to boot.
At list price I would not consider the 5803, but under 3k I couldn't resist either.
I was going to go with the Outlaw 950 (my turn came up & I passed at the last hour), but realized it didn't offer everything I needed (component video switching & inputs for starters).
Plus I worried about it being buggy at this early stage, & I was ready to buy now.
I basically came to the same conclusions Jeremy mentions in his post in regards as to why choose the 5803 over separates.
For 3k it makes a great pre/pro with the bonus of a 7 channel amp that puts out about 130w all 7 channels driven.
In the end it made sense to me.
If I feel the need I could add a 3 channel amp down the road for the front stage.
So far I have not felt the need.
For the money I honestly think the Denon is hard to beat.
It will at least rival separates sound wise at this 3k price range & offers more features than anything I can think of.
Everyone has their own needs, ears, & opinions, & to each his/her own, but this unit is top notch imo.
I upgraded from an Outlaw 1050 receiver & I can tell you with HT the 5803 knocked my socks off!!!
I was amazed at the sound improvement!
Music is also a huge improvement though I can see myself upgrading my DT 2004tls (awesome for HT) to a more musical speaker in the future.
The bass improvement was the first thing I noticed being so much cleaner & tighter.
So far I have say this is one smooth piece.
I bet your going to love the 5803.
Todd
oops edited typo (component switching & inputs for starters)
to of course
(component VIDEO switching & inputs for starters).

 

[Evan S]

Alex, for the price you got the Denon for, you have gotten yourself one great piece of gear.

This is becoming a separates vs. flagship thread and everyone has their opinion. The benefits of separates IMO is the increased flexibility down the road. If you want to swap out amps to change the sound, you can. It's not like you can sell the amps in the 5803. But like you said, you basically got the amplification for free. At $2800, the 5803 will do a lot more than the AVM-20, processing wise. It has increased video switching flexibility and actually shows on screen display for component video if I'm not mistaken. Flagships generally hold their value pretty well and you can probably get more than you paid for it if you decide to sell it used in a year or so.

Enjoy your purchase. I'm sure you'll love it.

 

[Martice]

Actually, I said that I already had the 5 channels of external amplification. Later I chose to buy the 5803 as a pre/pro predominantly (using only two channels for the surround backs). I am sure I would be very happy with the internal amps by themselves...I have the upgraded 5800 hooked up in another room and that sounds pretty damn good too!

Point taken and I stand corrected.

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Dalton,
I'm glad you like your receiver. It's a good one.
"Parasound 2205
Sherbourn 5/1500a
ATI 1505
Acurus 200x5"
Those are all definite improvements to the internal amplifiers and yes, used, you may be able to find them on the high end of my scale I outlined ($1.5k). However, they are all 5 channel amplifiers, not 7, IE the Denon.
Martice,
I read your comments as Alex did at first. I apologize if I jumped your shit mistakenly. I thought your intentions were to insight a riot over flagship vs. seperates...if this was not your intention...my apologies.
However, if it was...BRING IT ON
I'm kidding. However, your assumptions that I know all about Alex's speakers, room dimensions, and his exact hours that he watches TV every night are a bit off base. I don't need to know...because the Denon is a damn fine piece, in ANY room, with MOST speakers, and it doesn't matter what time of the day you turn it on
How do I know? Because I've had the 5800 in an apartment and now in a dedicated HT room. From one side of the spectrum to the other. I've also used several different types of speakers with it and auditioned many more. I've heard the 5800 in many situations and I've been happy every time.
Evan,
My intentions were not to start a seperates vs. flagship debate...rather quell one.
Alex,
Congrats again. I will repeat what I said earlier...you're going to love this bad boy!!!!
BTW, What speakers are you using and what are your room dimensions?
Jeremy

 

[Martice]

Jeremy:

How do I know? Because I've had the 5800 in an apartment and now in a dedicated HT room. From one side of the spectrum to the other. I've also used several different types of speakers with it and auditioned many more. I've heard the 5800 in many situations and I've been happy every time.

You sure do know this piece. However, let me know when you've returned Alex's ears to him since you obviously know his tastes regarding SOUND.

 

[Alex Yang]

Thank you all!
Now if ONLY my DENON would arrive already so I could listen to them!!!
-Alex
BTW - Since SO many people have borrowed my ears now, please someone return them to me so I can use them!!!

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

I put them in an overnight package last evening, Alex.

They should be on your doorstep this morning.


J