POWERED TOWERS, The test (1 Viewer)

[Tony Genovese]

Tony, that is a different speaker which probably does not have a full range low level in hookup option.

Uh, yeah, it does have the same hookup options. I once owned it, so I know. Reason I got rid of them: well with two big ass Hsu TN1220HO's pumping below 80, it seemed like a waste. My agenda (and I have one too) is to try and hit reference at the listening seat from 20hz on up. And you ain't gonna do it with a powered tower, it's impossible. If that's not important to you, whatever floats your boat. Reference floats mine. I therefore adhere to the THX paradigm: sealed sats that roll off at 12db per octave below 80, complementary crossover that adds an additional 12db, roll off the subs at 24db per octave, and everyone is playing what they do best to give me my 105db.

 

[Bob_A]

Tony, the person who hooked up using full range low level in and LFE in found this to be the best combo. For music, apparently the full range low level in was preferred, and for movies the LFE in was preferred for it's more forward presentation of bass.

If your main goal is "reference" level bass, then sure you wouldn't want a powered tower. In such a scenario, I would say most of the budget should be spent on high output external subs.

 

[Bob_A]

[nt]

 

[Steve Zimmerman]

The real question should be, Bob, why are YOU bothering to post? It is clear that you are not interested in listening to what anyone has to say, you cannot or don't want to comprehend simple concepts and when your incorrect statements are refuted (such as the statement that your speakers are reducing the load on your amp), you simply go back to your same ignorospeak.

What's the point of your little test? To convince yourself that you know what you're talking about? To convince yourself that you made the right decision? Nobody is trying to tell you that you aren't happy with your speakers. We know you are. But you clearly don't even care to comprehend what is being carefully and concisely explained to you, so why do *you* bother posting? Why not just tell yourself that you're happy and leave it at that?

--Steve

 

[RichardH]

Bob, I skimmed through your responses since my last post, so please forgive me if you've already addressed this.

Let me make myself absolutely clear about what I mean by stereo vs. mono bass. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether a particular CD has mono bass or stereo bass. Here is what I mean:

Say you have a normal CD that has the bass guitar mixed 70% left and 30% right. Now, you listen with both powered woofers on, sounds fine. Then you turn off the left powered woofer, "whoa, what happened to the bass??" So you turn up the right powered woofer to compensate, but then all the other bass (like the kick drum) that was panned up the center is now really boomy. You conclude that stereo powered woofers is better. Do you understand why this is wrong?

The proper way to compare what you are trying to do is this: there should be 2 options you are comparing, as follows:

1. The left powered woofer gets bass from the left front channel (as well as half of the LFE mono channel). The right powered woofer gets bass from the right front channel (as well as half of the LFE mono channel).

2. Only the right powered woofer is on. It is receiving the following: all of the LFE channel, plus all of the bass from the front left AND right channels (plus bass from other channels set to small).

The proper way to accomplish option 2 will involve the use of your receiver's sub-out jack, as well as setting all the speakers to small and sub to on.

This way, you're not "missing" any bass with option 2, and it becomes a subjective analysis as to which has the better quality of bass. If you don't do the test this way, there are too many other variables, as I've tried to explain. Please let me know if any of what I've said is unclear; I will try to reexplain.

Also, please don't get discouraged if there are strong reactions here. It's good to be learning things, but try to understand that alot of people here are trying to get you to understand some things correctly, and it can be frustrating.

 

[Bob_A]

My last post has been edited out.

Richard, thank you very much for the information. I really appreciate it. So you are saying that I should not worry about mono recordings, and instead worry about hookup method, correct?

 

[Bob_A]

Steve, I am not in the position to perform this test at the moment, but the general idea seems much clearer now. Thank you for your test suggestions. Hopefully some other people will be interested in trying this too.

 

[Tyson]

Personally, I happen to like Bob's posts. Sure, he can come off a bit obstinate at times, but I think the discussions that result are highly valuable, especially to other people that may not be as quick to post a challenge to a prevailing belief. Just look over the past few threads Bob has started. Gobs of great info about how crossovers work, how drivers work together, the pro's and cons of various setups, the manner in which CD's are recorded in regard to bass, what does and does not tax an amplifier. This is great stuff. While many people (myself included) probably already have a good grasp on how all of this works, more or less, a am willing to bet that a LOT of other people do now, and it is great to have so many knowledgable people explaining it so painstakingly clearly. Maybe some of these threads should be archived.

 

[Bob_A]

Thanks for the support Tyson, I really appreciate it.

 

[RichardH]

So you are saying that I should not worry about mono recordings, and instead worry about hookup method, correct?

Totally correct
Just use whatever CDs you are familiar with, disregarding the specific bass content on them. Although, I would recommend using a wide variety of genres in your listening evaluations, as this will ensure you have different bass content on various CDs.
Hope you understood what I meant about the 2 options and their corresponding hookup methods. Basically, the "normal" way you have things hooked up is option 1. The option 2 method just means treating the fronts as if they were "small" and the powered woofer in one of them as a separate subwoofer.
At any rate, I know that there are a ton of satisfied DefTech owners on the forum, and many of them really know what they are talking about. So, the point of this thread is not really a matter of discounting "powered towers," since that is a rather pointless endeavor.
To each their own, and I personally like the small speakers all around plus 1 outboard sub. Good luck with your tests.

 

[Carson E]

Quote from Tyson :

"I am willing to bet that a LOT of other people do now, and it is great to have so many knowledgable people explaining it so painstakingly clearly. Maybe some of these threads should be archived."

You are correct Tyson. I have learned a lot from this thread. Thanks to everyone. I have been confused on power towers and hookup options - especially how the internal PT amp worked in connection with the Receiver amps.

I now have a much better grasp on hook-up options if I ever run across a set of PT's.

Thanks to all that offered such indepth explainations.

 

[Steve Zimmerman]

OK, Bob, I guess I let my frustration get the best of me in my last post and I apologize. My frustration has stemmed from what has appeared (and still does as I review this thread) to me to be a lack of sincerity on your part to try to understand the concepts being explained. However, regardless of how clear that still seems to me, I admit that my perception may indeed be wrong.

If at any time you are interested in testing for yourself to see if the signal being sent to the powered drivers on your speakers is directional (meaning, can you tell whether a low frequency tone is coming from a particular speaker), you may easily do so with your existing equipment.

As has been explained, you would simply need to change the way you connect your speakers to your receiver. No extra wires, tools, or interconnects would be needed. You would simply connect the LFE out on your receiver to the LFE in on both speakers instead of using the Pre-Out/Low Bass In method you're using now. You would use the same Y connector and cable using the LFE connection method and change the settings on your receiver to Speakers=Small and Subwoofer=Yes. This would send an identical mono low bass signal to both speakers instead of the left and right stereo bass that your speakers are getting now.

That the manufacturer of your speakers does not recommend this connection as the ideal method for owners of receivers with built in bass management such as your Yamaha is completely beyond my ability to comprehend.

If such an experiment does not interest you--and I suspect that at this time it does not--then so be it. I categorically wish you all the enjoyment your speakers can provide regardless of how efficiently they're configured.

--Steve

 

[Bob_A]

Hi Steve,

I am sorry if it seemed lack a lack of sincerity. I appreciate all the help that people have given me. Forgive me for being defensive when it seems that some people are taking shots at me. Someday I would like to do the test. It is just a pain in the neck rearranging wires in my system. The receiver is placed on a built-in stand above the speakers, it's hard to connect certain things because there are so many wires and because the receiver is so high up, and the wires are routed through relatively small holes. But it is certainly doable. As for why Def Tech would recommend this method of hookup, well I think they specifically recommend this hookup for music because this gives you true stereo bass. I think that the bass is a little smoother when wired via "full range low level in". For people using an AC-3 decoder, they include the "LFE in" hookup. I think it is a preference thing, and some people will prefer the more forward presentation of bass using the "LFE in" hookup. But for music, I would still recommend wiring via "full range low level in" so that you get stereo bass.

 

[Steve Zimmerman]

I think that the bass is a little smoother when wired via "full range low level in"... for music, I would still recommend wiring via "full range low level in" so that you get stereo bass.

My recollection is that a couple of days ago you were of the mistaken understanding that your powered woofers were receiving a mono bass signal, so you are obviously making progress.

A few questions for you if I may:

(1) Since you prefer "stereo bass" you must believe that low frequency sounds can be localized, right?

(2) Below what frequency do you believe sounds are no longer localizable?

(3) If sounds in the 80 Hz range are indeed localizable, doesn't it concern you that the woofers on your DTs aren't facing forward?

--Steve

 

[ColinM]

Group Hug

 

[Bob_A]

Steve, I really have no idea what would be considered to be "localizable" in my setup. All I can say is that the "stereo" sub setup sounds very pleasing to my ear.
Colin, nice one

 

[Steve Zimmerman]

All I can say is that the "stereo" sub setup sounds very pleasing to my ear.

That's fine by me. If you like it that's what matters. However, previously you said "the bass is a little smoother" with the stereo sub setup. Smoother than what, exactly?! By your own admission, you have no personal experience to make this preference statement, nor were you able to quantify what you meant by "smoother" when directly asked.

As I said before, you'll get no gripes from anyone if you say simply "my system sounds smooth to me" but when you repeatedly make comparative statements in which you infer that your setup is somehow "smoother" than other configurations, then it's only fair that people ask you how you arrived at your conclusions, isn't it?

I think the most accurate statement you could make would be "I enjoy my current system and prefer it over other configurations because that's the way I have it set up and switching around the wires would be a monumental pain." IMO, nobody will argue with that or ask you to provide supporting data to backup such a claim.

--Steve

 

[Bob_A]

Steve, I meant to say "supposedly is smoother". This is the information that I have gotten from some people who have owned the bp2000TL and have tried out the different hookup methods. Apparently the LFE in results in a more "forward" presentation of the bass.

 

[John Kotches]

Bob,

So exactly what experience do you have using configurations besides your powered towers?

You've just admitted that all your experience with smoother response from the powered towers driven full range vs. using the powered woofer sections as LFE/Subwoofers is based on strictly anecdotal evidence.

Here's what I mean by anecdotal evidence:

Steve, I meant to say "supposedly is smoother". This is the information that I have gotten from some people who have owned the bp2000TL and have tried out the different hookup methods. Apparently the LFE in results in a more "forward" presentation of the bass.

At this point, you're back peddling faster than Deion Sanders in his prime as a cornerback. I have to admit, strictly for entertainment value this is amusing.

Regards,

 

[Bob_A]

John if you feel that user input from owners of the bp2000TL, as well as the manufacturer of the bp2000TL, is not worthwhile then fine...there is nothing else I can do to help you.