Power Rating

Discussion in 'AV Receivers' started by thapa, Apr 16, 2004.

  1. thapa

    thapa Agent

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    What's up with all the watts?

    A HK AVR230 shows 6*50 with a retail of $549.
    But a Yamaha HTR-5730 tells me that I can get 6*85 for $299!

    Is Yamaha overrated? HK underrated? What about Denon & Onkyo?

    While I'm at it, all the Ascend HT system users, what's the best receiver for a 5.1 CBM + CMT system? The HTR-5730 seems pretty good enough, but is it really? And on top of it all, the sales guy is giving me a HK AVR430 for $660? Sounds good???

    Cheers.
     
  2. DanaA

    DanaA Screenwriter

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    Different companies rate their power via different parameters. HK is noted to be one of the most honest in this regard. Onkyo and Yamaha don't have as stellar a reputation. Check the link below for power ratings with five channels driven and it will give you some idea.

    Link

    That said, I think sound pressure level increases every three decibels and perceived sound loudness every 10 or so decibels. It takes a doubling of power to increase SPL's three decibels. So, a 200 watt/channel amp will only, in fact, increase the SPL three decibels over a 100 watt/channel amp.

    Also to be considered, under real world conditions, rarely are all five speakers drawing the same amount of power simultaneously.

    Still, I prefer more actual power for the added security of the extra headroom.
     
  3. thapa

    thapa Agent

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    Holy crap.

    Does that thing say what I think it does?

    That Yamaha & Onkyo's actual power is less than half advertised?!

    Sounds dodgy, since I've heard many people say that Onkyo's power specs are under-rated and many others say that Yamaha has got a very decent power output.
     
  4. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    I would worry less about the wattages, and more about the qualities of the unit.
     
  5. Drew_W

    Drew_W Screenwriter

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    I would worry primarily about the sound quality of the unit, followed closely by features and then build quality. Wattage is just a number. Different people measure it differently...they might as well draw rated wattage numbers out of a hat.
     
  6. thapa

    thapa Agent

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    HK, Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo. Can there be really a LOT of build and sound quality difference between them?

    There are more than a million people swearing by each one of those brands.

    I just wanted to see if anyone knows anything for sure about how their power is rated. But yeah, guess everyone is as hazy on that one as me.
     
  7. Ernest Yee

    Ernest Yee Supporting Actor

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    Actually as for the wattage, alot of the companies rate their speakers either at a smaller range than full range and w/ usually just one channel driven. So the Yamaha might run at 85W for 1 channel but as for all, it would definitely be a whole lot less.
     
  8. ericanthonE

    ericanthonE Stunt Coordinator

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    I believe that most companies rate their products into 2 channels. It is only what the government requires the minimum of, hence they can get away with it.


    Rotel and NAD both rate into a full channel and MINIMAL watts/output. Seperates amplifiers would be another example of a TRUE continuous watt output


    Per say. A cheaper sony receiver would be rated into 2 channels and each of those channels rated at the MAXIMUM that it could possibly hit. Peak watts happen so fast that you can not actually hear them.

    If your receiver is rated at 100 watts X 7 channels. It is only probably putting about 60 or so TRUE minimal/continuous watts and that is only into 2 channels. Then to make matters even worse, it goes down from there as all of the channels need to be driven at the same time...

    A 100watt X 7 channel yamaha would actually be 100 watts continuously put out, but still only in two channels, it would again not be a true 100 watts(probably not even CLOSE) after being driven into all channels

    I agree with the people that say don't worry about the watts, see how it sounds to you.(for your needs). This is such a subjective matter, that maybe what is fantastic for you is lousy for others, and vice. versa.

    Yes, there is only a 10 watt increase for every 3db through the receivers volume range.(so basically watts are not as important as you would think)
     
  9. Travis

    Travis Second Unit

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    I will agree with others that watt's aren't the whole story but you would be amazed how much of a difference they can make. While any halfway efficient speaker can play loud with relatively minimal watts the more you apply (within reason) the better the overall sound will become. Bass will tighten up, the highs will be crisper, and the speakers will sound "fuller" at a lower volume. Not to mention the fact that if you like to crank the dial during music or movies you will not be pushing the receiver into clipping territory by asking it for more than it can give. JMO
     
  10. ericanthonE

    ericanthonE Stunt Coordinator

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    haha, i clipped my NAD a few times before i sent it back! Oh yeah, i definitely want the BIG amps, but one thing at a time.

    But for someone entry level, just see how it sounds, and if you like it, then go from there. Or else you will become easily overwhelmed with everything. There are just too many choices in my opinion(i am still overwhelmed a bit, and i am not a complete novice anymore.)

    In essence, as said before, it is just such a subjective matter. That is why it is important to listen with your own ears, and let them decide through their own experience.

    With regards and hope this helps, Eric

    I am no audiophile, just someone who merely understands maybe what your going through because i have been there myself, and still pretty much am still going through it!
     
  11. PaulDA

    PaulDA Cinematographer

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    Also remember that the sensitivity of your speakers comes into play, if I'm not mistaken. My old speakers were 86dB and my new ones are 90dB. In effect, I needed roughly twice the power output to reach matching spls at a given volume with my old speakers. (At least, this is what I understand to be a characteristic of more sensitive speakers).
     
  12. ericanthonE

    ericanthonE Stunt Coordinator

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    oh yes, sensitivity matters. I am(consider myself about) mid level knowledge about stereo equipment. maybe mid-high. You probably know more than me, just putting my 1and half cents in.

    Some people say that klipsch will have problems with a hiss when hooked up to an amplifier.
     
  13. Drew_W

    Drew_W Screenwriter

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    Paul, you're correct. Doubling power results in a 3dB increase...so if you have a 3dB difference in sensitivity, one pair needs twice the power...

    (And yes I can do math, I know the REAL gap between your speakers was 4dB...just using 3 as an example [​IMG])
     
  14. Yogi

    Yogi Screenwriter

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    [​IMG]

    I thought the receiver was doubling its output for every 3db rotation in its vol dial?
     
  15. Drew_W

    Drew_W Screenwriter

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    The graph of SPL vs W is logarithmic, not linear, so whoever made that initial comment about the 10W increase per 3dB is incorrect.

    And I don't think that's correct either Yogi, but an SPL meter and some math will verify for you.
     
  16. Yogi

    Yogi Screenwriter

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    How will the SPL meter tell me if the receiver doubled its power when I turned its dial up by 3db? All it will tell is my SPL increased by 3db corresponding to the 3db rotation in the receivers dial, and so it does when I do this measurement with my Denon 3802, but I don't know if my power output doubles for that 3db gain (it theoritically should but I have no way of knowing that).
     
  17. Drew_W

    Drew_W Screenwriter

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    The SPL meter would verify that the 3dB rotation actually equals a 3dB change. You can then use the equation for determining W given dB for the initial value and the initial+3dB value and verify that it does indeed double...or come close.
     
  18. Yogi

    Yogi Screenwriter

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    I still don't understand how I would determine absolute Watts doubling from a relative SPL measurement? Or do you mean the log (p2/p1) formula which would give me the doubling of watts per 3db change. In that case we already know that and it is based on that formula that we say 3db equates to doubling of power. So why would I derive the power doubling from the formula that gave me the 3db increase assuming the power was doubled? I am really confused[​IMG] Pardon my ignorance[​IMG].
     
  19. Carlo Medina

    Carlo Medina Executive Producer

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    Normally I'd look at such comments with a dubious eye if I hadn't heard the differences first-hand myself. While I haven't quantified the differences as well as Travis, I will say that moving from my Sony STR-DA555ES to an NAD T762 has made a huge difference in CD sound, and I can say the only difference is power because I use the same speakers, same CD player, and use the DACs on the CD player. I use analog outputs to the receiver, so the only difference was the amp section. Even the girlfriend (who is always looking to not-justify a purchase so I can send the unit back to my local dealer and get a refund before 30 days) heard a difference.
     
  20. ericanthonE

    ericanthonE Stunt Coordinator

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    sorry about that guys, like i said i am still learning. But doubling in power would still be 10db increase, right?
     

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