Portable noob needs MP3 player advice (1 Viewer)

[BrianW]

John, all I know is that I get at least 20 hours of play time between charges, and the battery indicator (which is undoubtedly non-linear and deceptive at low capacities) still shows 50%. I use the display a lot -- something not allowed in the 35-hr claim -- so that's fine with me. I have no intention of finding out how long it will run on a single charge. (See #2 for an explanation.)

I know the comments you speak of, and I encourage you to consider the following:

1. Play time is heavily determined by the headphones you use. In fact, the longer the battery life, the more your choice in headphones will affect the actual play time.

2. Lithium-ion batteries are a fantastic leap beyond NiCd and NiMH, but they can be abused. The best way to abuse a Li-ion battery is to repeatedly deep-cycle it. (Conversely, repeated deep cycling is actually GOOD for NiCd batteries.) Occassionally depleting a Li-ion battery won't hurt it, but doing it repeatedly will. Some of the posters on that forum have conducted battery tests by repeatedly deep-cycling ther batteries, and they've found that with each rebound, the batteries had diminished capacity. Well, DUH! Don't do that!

3. Does anything measure up to its marketing hype when it comes to battery capacity? "Up to XX hrs" claims always assume, if not unrealistically ideal circumstances, at least tightly-constrained conditions. The Samsung player has been documented to be able to play for well over 45 continuous hours without headphones attached. At least they didn't claim that worthless stastistic.

Yeah, the 35 hours is definitely marketing hype. But if the number of hours it will play (which current owners are willing to divulge before you buy) doesn't intertere with the way you intend to use it, and there's plenty of margin to spare, isn't that good enough? I was aware when I bought it that I probably wouldn't get 35 hours, especially since I also use mine to store and view family photos. But I'm very happy with the play time I'm getting.


Also, if you plan to use the Samsung as a data stick, you'll have to carry the USB cable along with the player. That's not very convenient. If your a "briefcase" kind of guy, however, this may not be an issue.

------------------------------------

Johnny, do you require an FM tuner or voice recording capability for your TX-FM replacement?

 

[Johnny Angell]

What is repeated deep-cycling? Would doing it monthly be considered excessive? Should it be done at all?

Yes, I want an FM tuner, but FM recording and voice recording is only a "nice-to-have" feature and not required.

 

[John Pine]

Good info Brian! I'd be happy with 20-25 hours. True, not many products stand up to their marketing hype. The jack for the headphones is rated at 16ohms per the manual. The Sennheiser earbuds I'm planning on using with it are 32ohm. I'm sure that will make a difference. Ahh....yes, the proprietary cable. I forget about that. Make's it kinda' of tough to use without that! Can't transfer data or charge it w/o that "magic" cable. Seems like the engineers dropped that ball on that one.

 

[BrianW]

Deep cycling for Lithium batteries is when you charge the battery all the way, and then depelete it completely in one event (without ever turning the device off). Doing this repeatedly means, well, just doing this over and over again.

Bear in mind, this is NOT the same thing as simply allowing your battery to go dead. Completely depleting a Li-ion battery isn't usually harmful under normal use, so don't worry about it, unless normal use for you is 35 continuous hours of listening. But if you repeatedly deep-cycle it, a few more ions will pass through the cathode/anode membrane each time single-event depletion occurs, dminishing the amount of charge it can hold.

Lead-acid batteries are also adversely affected by deep cycling, but they are adversely affected regardless of how many events it takes to achieve depletion. Li-ion batteries, for some reason, seem to benefit greatly when they are allowed to "rest" by occasonally turning the device off, or even by putting the device in low-power stand-by mode, as so many devices are doing these days. I don't know why this is true. Unlike lead-acid batteries, which suffer constant degradation from normal use, Li-ion batteries are really only vulnerable to damage when in a depleted state. (Well, actually, ions are migrating through the membrane all the time even if the battery isn't being used, which is why Li-ion batteries have a specified shelf life. But this "ion trickle" is so small that it is insignificant compared to cycle-induced migration while the battery is in service.)

In fact, Lithum battery life expectancy is determined and specified by how many deep cycles a battery can endure and still retain a certain percentage of its original capacity, usually 35 to 50 percent, depending on application. So when a Li battery is specified to last a minimum of 300 charge cycles, some people mistakenly think that means that if they charge it every day, it won't last even a year. But that's 300 deep-cycles. In fact, such a battery could last a good ten years being charged every day if it is never deep-cycled.

So, amazingly, a Li battery's minimum charge-cycle count is one specification that is vastly underspecified for real-world conditions.

It's really not anything to worry about, unless you regularly completely deplete your battery between charges. Usually, the only people who do this are battery testers (I used be one, several lifetimes ago), and masochistic zealots with nothing better to do.

 

[Jason Kirkpatri]

My personal experience indicated otherwise. Using the same headphones I use with my Creative, I found the shuffle too thin and pierce sounding. I sold it to a friend of mine who liked it. Just my own personal experience, but that's all that really matters.

Granted, different earphones may have sounded better, but I wasn't about to try to match earphones to the shuffle when I already had a better sounding combination with the my Creative.

But in a gym environment, the new shuffle still looks to be the way to go!

 

[Jason Kirkpatri]

The new Zen V models look interesting. A bit finicky on the "joystick" maybe.
http://creative.com/products/product...&product=15283

 

[Johnny Angell]

The reason I was asking about the depletion is that I've had a device that had a built in function where it would discharge the battery completely and then recharge it. I can't remember the type of battery this was for.

The Zen V model is getting pricey and I don't need that screen. I'm leaning towards the Zen Nano Plus here: http://us.creative.com/products/prod...0&nav=features

It looks to be everthing I want, except it uses a USB cable. When I look on the Creative site it doesn't mention anything about FM, but at merchant sites, like Circuit City, it says FM.

I'm wondering if they haven't discontinued this one also. To buy from Creative Directly, they only have pink.

Edit:I take it back, they do mention FM.

 

[BrianW]

I'm sorry, in case it wasn't clear, that was just a very long-winded way of saying not to be afraid to use your battery's full charge capacity, and that you should top off the charge on your lithium batteries at every opportunity to get maximum performance.

Also, the nice thing about having a device with such a long play time is that under normal use, the battery is never completely depleted, and thus can't sustain depletion-induced ion migration. Under those conditions, a lithium battery used even on a daily basis will last every bit as long as its specified shelf life. And as batteries go, that's really quite amazing.


Did I digress again? Sorry.

 

[BrianW]

Johnny, that device wth the "deplete" function must have had NiCd batteries, which actually benefit from repeated depletion. NiCd batteries sustain damage when you start the charge cycle while the batteries still have some charge left in them (the infamous "memory effect"), so it's best to deplete them completely before charging them.

Lithium batteries are just the opposite and should be kept topped-off for maximum performance.

 

[BrianW]

Johnny, I found this at the Creative site. Everything you want, and no USB cable required. I can't check availability since I can't use ********** (not at home), but there's no mention of it being discontinued that I could see.

 

[Johnny Angell]

What did you find? I get a page not found using your link.

 

[BrianW]

Sorry, I'm trying to do this from my phone, and I can't copy&paste very well.

From the page in your link, click on the "MuVo" link, and scroll down to the TX-FM" product.

 

[Johnny Angell]

The phone makes it tough, I know. The only thing there that doesn't use a cable is the Muvo Mix and it only goes up to 512mb. The others come with usb cables except for the TX FM and its not available. Too bad. Yes, it wold be my first choice. I can ebay it if I want to spend $125 or more.

 

[ChristopherG]

I have been looking at http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archi...ies-review.php

seems to have lots of functionality for a pretty good price.

 

[Greg_R]

Here's a thread discussing the best

 

[BrianW]

Johnny, I found the following at Outpost.com (Fry's):

Sony Player w/FM Tuner

Samsung Player w/FM Tuner

Samsung Player

I can't tell with the first two, but I know the last one doesn't require a USB cable, and it is "FM/RDS Ready", whatever that means.

 

[Johnny Angell]

Thanks Brian, that Sony with the quick charge (3 minutes gives you 3 hours play time) is interesting.

However, I went out today and got the Creative Zen Nano Plus 1GB. While it does require a cable, I've discovered it uses the same USB cable my Harmony 880 remote does. I've been leaving that cable in my pc, so at least its handy.

This is a small, compact player, something I wanted, good sound quality, at least to my ears. Has FM, I can record through a line-in jack. So I could hook up to my AV receiver. Not sure why I'd do that, but it's there.

 

[BrianW]

Since the proprietary USB connector has many more connections than a USB requires, I think it's safe to say that Samsung has future expansion in mine, a la iPod. But I definitely agree that they could have made things easier by putting an alternative sub-miniature D-connector next to the proprietary connector. It would have added about $0.16 to the cost of the unit (to manufacture), and would have added a world of convenience to those of us who don't want to carry the proprietary cable around 24/7 just to use it as a data stick.

Still, nice player, though

 

[Johnny Angell]

Now I know what it is. I also noticed that both cables have this cylinder around the cable. I wonder what that is for?

 

[BrianW]

That cylinder is just a hunk of iron. Seriosly. It's called a "choke", and its function is to suppress radio-frequency emissions by the cable so it doesn't interfere with other stuff. Without it, the USB cable would be a screaming radio beacon.

Congrats on your purchase, Johnny!

Now, if we can just get John sorted out...