Pan & Scan ONLY family releases: the controversy is NOT over yet (Warner & Paramount) (1 Viewer)

[Colin Jacobson]

quote: It's hard to tell from this article exactly
what Paramount and Warner are up to regarding
future releases, but I still find it very hard
to understand why BOTH versions can't be released
on the SAME disc.[/quote]
In the case of Wonka, it seemed likely that they couldn't easily fit two versions of the movie plus the extras on one disc. In the case of Web, however, there was more than enough room; it only runs 94 minutes, and the DVD's extras are brief...
quote: So why not just put both OAR and MAR versions on the same side of the disc, using RSDL technology? Uh-uh. Gotta have room for those supplements, and still get good picture quality. Otherwise, sales suffer and those dudes over at HTF still complain, this time about the bit-rate. No-win scenario there![/quote]
But this DOES work in some situations, and it's been used in the past. Recently Joe Dirt did it, and I think all of Disney's dual-ratio releases do it. As long as the extras are non-existent or minor, it'll work. Actually, Dirt did it and STILL had some nice supplements, mainly because it offered two audio commentaries; those don't take up as much space. Nonetheless, it tossed in a few deleted scenes, outtakes and some other things, all while it crammed in two versions of the movie...
quote: And look, it's not just WB and Paramount. Universal started releasing 2 different SKUs, one for each, back around The Mummy and Stuart Little...2 years ago.[/quote]
Stuart Little was actually from Columbia-Tristar...
quote: I agree that the "battle" for OAR is far from over. I'm certain that someone...likely WB...will continue to try to release ONLY a MARred edition of something in the future. Why do I say WB? Because of Pokemon 3. Yeah, we cried out about Wonka, LoTR, and C&D. But we didn't take P3 seriously and so there's no OAR version of it. Who cares? We should...it's a foot in the door. If not P3, then why not something else later on?[/quote]
Actually, ALL three of the Pokemon movies are pan&scan. The first one had text that tried to convince us it was open matte, but a viewing of the DVD showed otherwise. The second and third flicks clearly were P&S as well...
quote: However, I don't care to worry about Paramount, if CW is the only example.[/quote]
Oh, I definitely think that's the right attitude. While some seem bothered that they released the fullscreen Web, let's not forget that they did the widescreen version FIRST.
Actually, the most troubling aspect of the fullscreen release relates to the potential reason WHY they're doing this. Paramount has been an excellent supporter of OAR; off the top of my head, I can't think of a single open-matte/P&S transfer on one of their DVDs. (Don't slam me if I'm wrong - I'm not saying they don't exist, but I can't recall any.)
My concern is that they did their usual 16X9 release and thought it didn't sell as well as it should because it's widescreen. This is pure conjecture, but it does seem odd that a company with such good support of OAR releases a fullscreen version a couple of months AFTER the original. Had they come out simultaneously, I'd think little of it, but this situation
quote:
Perhaps the best solution is that the studios ought to go ahead and create 2 discs. 1 OAR, and 1 MAR. Each with a full round of supplements. Each with great bit-rate. Then put both of them in 1 double-keepcase, a la Tarzan or Dinosaur Collector's editions (or Abyss or ID4, if you must). Then there's only one SKU to stock, and we'd be happy to pay a bit more for it, right?
Uh...problem from the studio's point of view: how many of these will be bought by two people and split the discs up? Y'know: "go in half with me; I'll take the P&S version and you can have the silly one with the black bars; I'll even let you have the box if I get the booklet".
Okay, so they can defeat that: Disc 1 has BOTH versions of the movie, one on each layer (a la Return To Oz). The 2nd disc has all the supplements. Ya still got labels on the discs. Still got a decent bit-rate. Still got 1 SKU.[/quote]
As done by CTS for the Men In Black LE. Probably some others did this as well, but MIB's the first to come to mind.
Note that a number of two-DVD sets with both ratios use their own solution: they make sure that the supplements on each disc differ. Glory and virtually all of the Universal Ultimate Editions have some unique content on each disc, which may help deter the potential splitting-up of two-DVD sets. It wouldn't stop it as well as the MIB LE solution, but it probably has an effect.
And I agree that a two-DVD package of the MIB LE sort is a good idea. I don't know how many studios will go for it, as I'm sure they'll argue it's too expensive, but it appears that two-DVD sets must not be much more costly to make than single-disc affairs, considering the degree to which they're growing. I believe the extra sales would balance out the minimal costs. Even when there's not much extra on a two-DVD set, the package has a greater perceived value. For example, I'd be willing to bet that it CTS had released Joe Dirt with the same features but on two discs it would have sold better - it seems more "special", at least for the time being; after a while, we'll probably get so used to two-DVD sets that they'll have to go to three more commonly to spark our attention...
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Colin Jacobson
DVD Movie Guide
www.dvdmg.com
[Edited last by Colin Jacobson on September 08, 2001 at 12:29 PM]

 

[David Lambert]

I don't buy for a second that SKU's and dual releases are very costly or a big issue to a studio or retailers. Why is it such a big deal to have two SKU's. With the numerous other products retailers have, this should be a non-issue.

AaronMK: Wrongo. I was a retail store manager for 13 years in one of the biggest dual-SKU markets around: computer software:
"1 SKU for MS-DOS, 1 SKU for Mac".
"1 SKU for 3.5" disk, 1 SKU for 5.25 disk" (later the 2nd SKU would be for CD-ROM).
"1 SKU for the How-To book, 1 SKU for the How-To book with the samples diskette".
"1 SKU for the Black Ink, 1 SKU for the Color Ink".
You get the idea.
I can tell you, with no doubts, that our shelf space was packed. That even when it was empty-looking, the buyers had used up all the "inventory dollars" they were willing to allocate to my location (every retail location in every chain is given a limit to how much inventory as measured in dollars the general office is willing to stock there; it's not noised about but it's a common retail practice, having to do with many aspects like inventory turns and insurance and so forth).
Later, when customers complained that we hadn't stocked that new item that wasn't going to be a big hit, but they they wanted to get their hands on, I couldn't do much about it except offer to special order it. I knew it would never be on my store's shelf, because the buyer thought it less important than stocking that Macintosh version of "Dark Castle" (no offense to Mac owners out there; I wasn't disagreeing with the decision in my example, I was just making a point).
So, when you complain that Best Buy doesn't have that less-popular/more-obscure title for you to pick up, it might be because they had to stock two SKUs of Silence of the Lambs, and that put them over the inventory cap or used up the last of the shelf space. (This is another reason I'm glad BB is clearing out most VHS; it leaves more shelf space and inventory dollars for DVD!)
And, even if the amount of money that the studio would spend to make the 2nd SKU is miniscule, it IS a finite amount of money. Every nickel adds up, right? And we all agree that every studio is stingy, right? I don't hate them for that...they are in business to make a profit. Just like you and I work to make a profit for ourselves, even if it's via wage or salary instead of running a studio.
Anyway, it doesn't matter if you buy these explanations or not. They are a fact of life. Sorry.
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DAVE/Memphis
Widescreen is Family Fun!

 

[David Lambert]

Colin Jacobson, I'll reply to you bit-by-bit:

And I agree that a two-DVD package of the MIB LE sort is a good idea. I don't know how many studios will go for it, as I'm sure they'll argue it's too expensive, but it appears that two-DVD sets must not be much more costly to make than single-disc affairs, considering the degree to which they're growing.

The studio gets to charge $5-$10 more on the SRP to cover the 2nd disc's cost. The studio only has the expense of one box (although bigger), one art insert, and one liner notes/chapter stop list insert. The box can be Abyss-style or CastAway-style, whichever they find cheaper and that the complainers of the world will complain least about (the CA box is fine with me, by-the-way). I hope they stay away from cardboard, but enough other people think it's okay that I probably won't get that wish, since it's even cheaper than the other two. It makes "Special Editions" like Wonka more special because it's two discs.
And *there's* why it's so hard for WB to get behind this idea. Their commitment to snappers makes it so hard for them to put out two-disc sets. I wish they would invent the double-snapper (glue two snappers back-to-back, with the 2nd one opening backwards and with the back cover art on it's "door"), so they could put out two-disc sets and not use the JFK method of putting out two discs. Even better of course if they give up snappers - at least for 2 disc sets - but as you can tell I've given up on the idea that they will give up snappers. Sigh.
Enough for now. Thanks for a great post, Colin!
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DAVE/Memphis
Widescreen is Family Fun!

 

[Joseph S]

Yeah, and then stores go and make one SKU priced 1/2 that of the other SKU and use that against Macs. (even though both SKU contain the same CD-Rom) So the stores decide not to order that platform's copies the next time.
And even though that one SKU sold so little copies at the high price, they still kept producing for the Mac because they knew from feedback that their games were still in high demand on that platform.
...until they are swallowed up by MSNBCESPNABCDISNEYCO and Bungie is no more.
I'm sick of these flawed surveys, they'll all be complaining about the grey bars in due time. Those consumers are hardly that at all, they're renters. Support those that support you and not those who don't. Give us OAR!!!!!!!!!

 

[David Lambert]

Those consumers are hardly that at all, they're renters.

Now THERE's an idea! MAR discs only in Blockbuster, OAR everywhere else!!
Think the studios will agree to that?

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DAVE/Memphis
Widescreen is Family Fun!

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Personally, I'd rather have seperate WS and P&S (if there needs to be a P&S at all) versions of the discs... I just don't like the idea that I'm paying for something I'll never use. It's like when they package three "Sim" games together, and you only want one of them, but the package is the only way to get the game. You feel gipped that you had to play for the other two.
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My DVD Collection

 

[AaronMK]

I am aware of many of the issues concerning multiple SKU's (though not nearly aware as a store manager would be). I still think that this is a lame excuss for not having dual releases when needed due to supplements and/or the length of a movie.
I also have to wonder about it when stores like Best Buy do stock both versions. They usually don't reserve more shelf space for a given title because of a dual release, they divide that space between the releases.
I realize that many stores will decide not to stock both versions because of shelf space, the volume in which they have to order, or limited inventory alotment. But there are many stores that will (especially online and specialty retailers.) The people who really want a particular version will seek it out.
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My DVD's
If a movie is not available in OAR, than it might as well not be available at all.

 

[Colin Jacobson]

quote:
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Actually, ALL three of the Pokemon movies are pan&scan.
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Roger that. I was referring only to the most recent one in the context of recent releases. Otherwise, we'll be bringing up stuff like Private Benjamin. But that's a different thread!

Gotcha! Unlike Benjamin and other older releases, I think the three Pokemon movies stand out because they were fairly rare examples of first-run releases that were P&S. Back catalog fullscreen is one thing, but it's pretty unusual for a studio to go P&S ONLY for a brand new flick...
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Colin Jacobson
DVD Movie Guide
www.dvdmg.com

 

[Matt_Stevens]

I hate seperate releases because some rental stores either buy pan & scan if they can,or are sent them by mistake. The local TommyK has had a real problem getting pan & scan copies on some duel releases, even though they ordered widescreen.

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www.deceptions.net/superman

 

[Mark Zimmer]

I'm somewhat surprised that Jeff's comment about the new Fox release being not only P&S but censored to be family-friendly went by without comment. This strikes me as an outrage heaped upon an outrage! Is it because Fox is the golden boy studio around here? I don't care if they give HTF visitors on the studio tour a good time, I want them not to censor or mutilate movies. Honestly, it's like a few goodies turns this place into Stereo Review (our motto: never heard a bad piece of equipment from a paid-in-full advertiser).
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"This movie has warped my fragile little mind."

 

[David Lambert]

On the contrary, Mark...I think it is horrible. OTOH, I don't know that film (I just looked it up at the IMDB and I've never heard of it before), and therefore it's hard to post anything specific. I'm outraged, and would not buy it. But I wasn't going to buy it anyway. But, Fox should know better.
MTP (Modified Theatrical Presention, including but not limited to MAR, Editing Out, colorization, loss of 3-D where applicable, etc.) = NO SALE
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DAVE/Memphis
Widescreen is Family Fun!

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

My review for To Walk With Lions is up. This is a great film about George Adamson, of "Born Free" fame, starring Richard Harris. It is NOT a kid's flick, yet looks like that is what it is being marketed as.
I was shocked to see this from Fox, especially with audio edits, though I can't say who is to blame for those.
I have links in the review to the official website which has the 2.35:1 trailers online.
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Link Removed | Burt Lancaster is Link Removed | dOc

 

[Mark Cappelletty]

Was To Walk With Lions ever released theatrically? I thought I remembered this premiering on the Starz! cable channel. Like some of the stuff Fox has dumped straight-to-video (Sunset Strip starring Jared Leto, for instance), I'm surprised that this didn't just get a token VHS release.