Official STAR WARS Saga Discussion Thread: Part 5 (1 Viewer)

[Josh Steinberg]

The last time I watched the prequels with my wife, who historically didn’t care for them, I just said to her “Pay attention to what Palpatine says and does and how everyone responds to those interactions. That is the real story.”

 

[Sam Favate]

The still-canon Clone Wars series (which is worth a watch despite the large number of episodes) goes a little deeper into this.

Still canon? As long as Dave Filoni is Lucasfilm’s chief creative officer, it always will be.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Still canon? As long as Dave Filoni is Lucasfilm’s chief creative officer, it always will be.

I said “still canon” because Disney de-canonized nearly everything outside of the first six films when they took over and I wanted to offer clarity to Scott that, unlike the EU novels, that this still “counted”.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Still canon?

As opposed to the 2D version that Genndy Tartakovsky did.

 

[Sam Favate]

As opposed to the 2D version that Genndy Tartakovsky did.

Oh yeah, but that really should be too. That’s a tremendous series.

 

[ScottRE]

If I've learned anything in my life, it's that Star Wars fans hate what's new and like what's old. Before the prequels, it was "Return Of The Jedi is bad!". With the prequels, it was "The original trilogy is perfect! The prequels are terrible!!!!". With the sequels, it's "The George Lucas movies are great! The sequels are terrible!!!!!" For the amount of raw hatred that was directed at the prequels and everything related to them to have actually changed makes me have no doubt that in a decade or so that the sequels will be similarly embraced (especially by people who grew up with them) and then it'll be time for whatever Disney is doing then to be the worst thing to ever happen to crybaby Star Wars fans.

To be fair, I always felt ROTJ was a major step downwards after Empire. And I only saw it in a better light after 1) the Special Editions actually improved it in a few spots (until Lucas couldn't stop and added the "noooo!") and 2) The Phantom Menace made it look genius.

As for TPM, I wamred to it a little more, but it's still a giant kid's movie. I always enjoyed the other two episodes.

My feelings of the sequel trilogy, as per the last viewing, are as follows (and a rewatch will see if they change):

TFA: a nearly good movie until it becomes painfully obvious it's a remake of the original. I was really disappointed in the theater. Phenomenal effects though.

TLJ: I loved it in the theater and still did the last time I watched it. It took giant risks and subverted expectations. I just wish Finn had more to do and they let Leia die when she was blown into space.

TROS: awful, lazy, cowardly reset button because they were afraid of fandom. Just really an insulting film. This is the only Star Wars film to get me angry the more I let it sit after seeing it opening weekend.

I am 100% sure my opinion of these films is in a minority.

 

[ScottRE]

The still-canon Clone Wars series (which is worth a watch despite the large number of episodes) goes a little deeper into this. Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi who had come to fear, following the events of Phantom Menace, that war was inevitable. He was thrown off the Jedi council for not letting this concern go, and went to Kamino to commission the army so that the Republic would have one if and when war happened. But what Sifo-Dyas didn’t know was that Count Dooku had secretly become a Sith, so when Sifo-Dyas first became concerned about war being inevitable, it’s because Dooku was manipulating him into believing it was inevitable. Once Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clones, Palpatine and Dooku had him killed. As far as the cloners on Kamino knew, Sifo-Dyas was acting on behalf of the Jedi and the Republic. (The Jedi didn’t want it widely known that they excommunicated one of their own so it was never widely publicized that Sifo-Dyas had left the order.)

It all comes back to Palpatine’s desire to gain power, and the way Palpatine manipulated all sides to secretly create a conflict that would allow him to position himself as the only solution to that conflict.

That’s why Palpatine’s plan for Phantom Menace was brilliant because there was no losing for him. If the trade federation had succeeded at Naboo, Darth Sidious has a pathway towards taking over the Galaxy. The trade federation failed at Naboo, but that failure allowed Palpatine to rise from a backwoods senator to Chancellor. In either scenario, he comes out with much more power than he had before the conflict began.

Beautiful, thanks Josh. I'm glad someone came up with a really nice way to explain this guy. The movie was really confusing there.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Beautiful, thanks Josh. I'm glad someone came up with a really nice way to explain this guy. The movie was really confusing there.

It’s been a while but if memory serves, this was going to be explained in expository dialogue either in the Dooku-Obi-Wan scene and got dropped, or it was meant to be explained later but cut from the script from Episode III. I think it wound up as one of those things that wasn’t really needed in the big picture.

That Obi-Wan/Dooku scene as it’s in the film is great, though. Dooku tells him the straight up truth about everything (only leaving out-but not actually lying-that he and Palpatine were the Sith Lords in question). And I genuinely think that if Obi-Wan had agreed to join Dooku, Dooku would have turned on Palpatine/Sidious.

 

[Sam Favate]

That Obi-Wan/Dooku scene as it’s in the film is great, though. Dooku tells him the straight up truth about everything (only leaving out-but not actually lying-that he and Palpatine were the Sith Lords in question). And I genuinely think that if Obi-Wan had agreed to join Dooku, Dooku would have turned on Palpatine/Sidious.

The only thing I was never clear on is whether Dooku knew Sidious was Palpatine. If he didn’t, he surely was hit with the revelation when Palpatine ordered Anakin to kill him.

 

[TravisR]

My feelings of the sequel trilogy, as per the last viewing, are as follows (and a rewatch will see if they change):

TFA: a nearly good movie until it becomes painfully obvious it's a remake of the original. I was really disappointed in the theater. Phenomenal effects though.

TLJ: I loved it in the theater and still did the last time I watched it. It took giant risks and subverted expectations. I just wish Finn had more to do and they let Leia die when she was blown into space.

TROS: awful, lazy, cowardly reset button because they were afraid of fandom. Just really an insulting film. This is the only Star Wars film to get me angry the more I let it sit after seeing it opening weekend.

I am 100% sure my opinion of these films is in a minority.

Our opinions on the sequels are fairly similar. I love The Last Jedi for the same reasons as you. As for The Rise Of Skywalker, I agree that they tried to 'erase' TLJ because of the reaction of fans. Catering to SW fans is a fool's errand and they should have had the courage that they showed with making TLJ and kept going forward with something new. I don't really blame Abrams for that because I'm sure he was told to drop X, Y or Z from TLJ. That being said, there are some things that I love in TROS like the galaxy fleet at the end of the movie (I love the idea of the people helping to save the day), Han saying "I know" to Ben Solo, Rey hearing all the past Jedi and the end with Rey staring out at the binary sunset.

The only thing I was never clear on is whether Dooku knew Sidious was Palpatine. If he didn’t, he surely was hit with the revelation when Palpatine ordered Anakin to kill him.

I don't know if anything has spelled it out but Dooku must know that they're the same guy before Revenge Of The Sith. They're in the same room together at the end of Attack Of The Clones. I think that lack of confirmation comes from one of Lucas' weird quirks. If I remember correctly, he didn't want anything to spell out that Sidious and Palpatine were definitely the same character in The Phantom Menace or any of the expanded universe stuff dealing with that time frame. That's just weird because nothing in any of the movies ever makes it a mystery to be solved.

 

[Tommy R]

I was 13/16/19 as the prequel trilogy was released, and didn’t really think much about them back then. As the years have passed I’ve soften to them, with TPM firmly being my favorite.

But my wife and I went through The Clone Wars show (plus the movie) over the last year, just finished it a few weeks ago (and now on to Rebels), and it retroactively improves the prequel trilogy greatly! It fills in a lot of blanks like Sifo-Dyas as well as all the inhibitor chips in the clones. Such amazing stuff. I’m definitely now at full-appreciation of what Lucas was doing with the prequels.

 

[Jason_V]

TFA: a nearly good movie until it becomes painfully obvious it's a remake of the original. I was really disappointed in the theater. Phenomenal effects though.

Agreed. It's fun and energetic until you realize that they're doing, and then that realization sucks all the fun out of it. It was still a great theater experience on opening night, though, and I don't think it's a "bad" movie by any stretch. Just unoriginal.

TLJ: I loved it in the theater and still did the last time I watched it. It took giant risks and subverted expectations. I just wish Finn had more to do and they let Leia die when she was blown into space.

Also agreed. A wildly different movie with only one part I don't care for (the Leia scene you mentioned). Otherwise, I'd love more like this.

TROS: awful, lazy, cowardly reset button because they were afraid of fandom. Just really an insulting film. This is the only Star Wars film to get me angry the more I let it sit after seeing it opening weekend.

And...also also agreed. I'm on record as to why I don't like this movie and all my problems with it. I don't need to rehash them here. But it's not original in any way. Instead of building on what happened in The Last Jedi, the did a mish-mash of elements from other SW movies. I've seen this movie three times (opening night, with friends a week later and then during a SW binge in 2020). It never gets better for me.

 

[Alex...]

Daisy Ridley Recalls Director J.J. Abrams’ Advice After Star Wars Casting: “This Is a Religion for People”

Ridley battled intense anxiety during the release of 'The Last Jedi,' eventually leading to the development of holes in her gut.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

 

[ScottRE]

I just finished a three night viewing of the original trilogy. And I mean original. 35mm prints from a few sources; Star Wars 4K77, Harmy's "Grindhouse" ROTJ and a beat to hell Empire print.

I haven't seen the films like this since they were released.

Star Wars: **** Amazing experience. Some pacing lag when the droids are crossing the desert but it is lovely to see this movie, warts and all, and without a thousand added rontos. Not that I hate all of the SE added effects, Some of them worked quite well, but Ben Kenobi didn't need a bigger house. Tatooine was supposed to be in the ass end of nowhere, so Mos Eisley wasn't meant to be a bustling metropolis. Han's elongated neck didn't need to dodge a shot that never would have missed at that range. Jabba didn't need to have a scene reciting almost the exact dialog Greedo just did and the Death Star didn't need a Star Trek 6 shock wave ring. And and the most recent addition of "Maclunkey" is just grotesque.

However, I forgot how stiff the Death Star trench battle originally was. As great is it looked in 1977, I think the '97 redo did it a favor.

Even so, the film still packed plenty of the old magic. It feels like an indie film and that's one of the reason it had so much energy. These kids were too young to realize they were in over their heads but they pulled it off. Beautiful movie.

The Empire Strikes Back ***** - A film so perfect, it was the lest "touched" by the Special Editions and those touches didn't damage the film much. And, honestly, the four things the SE did right I actually missed this time around: the new Wampa footage, the cleaning up of the snow speeders (which are translucent a lot of the time to avoid matte lines) and the opening up of Bespin. I mean, if you build a city in the clouds, you're gonna have some windows! It's like moving to a beautiful mountainside and having nothing but solid walls blocking the view. And finally, fixing Luke so when he falls, he isn't see-through and kind of gray.

What we didn't ever need was Vader's "alert my star destroyer to prepare for my arrival" and then tacking on repurposed ROTJ footage. Also, refilming the Emperor in the communication scene to match Ian McDiarmid doesn't work because it's "prequel" Palpatine we see, with his puffy face and slooowwwww delivery. And I hated when they replaced Jason Wingreen's voice for Boba Fett. But the movie is so perfect, these are just minor annoyances.

What struck me was just how this looked and felt like film. The textures and lighting were so nice (colors were off because of the age of the print) and it doesn't feel overly scrubbed and perfect. I felt like a teenager again. Perfect film, perfect score. John Williams was on fire and this, along with Superman and Raiders, is my favorite of his long career of scores.

Return of the Jedi ***½

Not as bad as I remembered. The Jabba sequence is easier to take without the replacement and added musical numbers. The creatures are still faker than anything in the previous two films and Threpoio is sooooo annoying, but it moves quickly enough. Certain things stood out and I remember scratching my head in 1983. Yoda tells Luke, "no more training you need." And "You must face Vader. Only then will you be a Jedi.' Literally seconds later, the same Yoda says "Unfortunate you did not complete your training and faced Vader before you were ready." So what is different now? The fact that Luke will now have to fight Vader knowing it's his dad? He didn't know WHEN Vader told him, so that doesn't make sense. This entire Dagobah sequence is narratively awful. Yoda, who was upset when Luke left before he was ready, tells him he doesn't need more training (and it's clear Luke didn't come back in the time between movies), and then tells him he should have waited to face Vader until he needed more training but all he needs to be a Jedi now is to face Vader. And then Ben tells him about his sister and nobody is shocked. Not even Leia, who later says she had always known. Well, we all remember the kiss... Oh yeah and Ghost Ben sits on a log.

Anyway.

The things get marginally better, but the Han/Lando goodbye scene is awfully stilted. The speeder chase is amazing. Meeting the Ewoks is where the movie rinds to a dead halt. But once Vader takes Luke, the movie MOVES. Somehow, Lucas/Marquand balance three distinct and chaotic battles without once losing sight of any of them. Luk vs Vader and the Emperor is sublime. The space battle is special effects poetry. The Endor surface battle is where things get too kiddie for me, But in the end, it all feels satisfactory.

ROTJ though was the one film I really enjoyed when I saw the 1997 SE. Adies from the new music numbers, the repaired Rancor battle looked great. The added Sarlacc details worked great. Fixing the starfield and the black blob next to the Emperor's eye was appreciated. And expanding the celebration to other planets - with new music - was extremely satisfying. It worked great.

But then Lucas couldn't leave it alone. After the prequels, he had to add Naboo and Heyden Christensen to the finale and then, dear God, Vader's "Nooooo!" I would love a Blu Ray/4k version of the 1997 edition.

All in all, though, a really great revisiting of the saga and this troligy stands tall. Honestly, other than The Phantom Menace, I liked the entire story.

But this is where I stop. As far as the movies are concerned, this was the extend of George Lucas' vision. I may visit the pre-Disney Clone Wars, but really, this is all I need. This was the story Lucas told and everything post Disney is just someone else's take on Star Wars. For me, the Star Was Saga consists of six influential films.

 

[TravisR]

The Empire Strikes Back ***** - ...And, honestly, the four things the SE did right I actually missed this time around: the new Wampa footage...

I love the monster costume but the new footage doesn't cut together with the old for me. Even if those shots had been in the original release, I don't buy that both Luke and the Wampa are in the same place.

 

[ScottRE]

Yeah it's tough because they couldn't share the same screen space due to the passage of years. Thankfully, they didn't think to add "Star Warsy" dewbacks in the same scene instead.

 

[Alex...]

Star Wars Announcement Incoming...

Could it be
Kenobi Season 2
The Acolyte
Andor Season 2

 

[Sam Favate]

Star Wars Announcement Incoming...

Could it be
Kenobi Season 2
The Acolyte
Andor Season 2

It’s got to be something with Obi-Wan, that’s the phrase most associated with him. I hope it is Obi-Wan season 2. I enjoyed the first one a lot.

I am also looking forward to the Lando movie with Donald Glover.

EDIT: Another thought: Could it be an announcement of a 4k UHD of the Obi-Wan show? There were rumors it was coming.

 

[Alex...]

This is the announcement...

Empire Magazine to celebrate 25 years of the Prequel Trilogy.

Empire’s Star Wars Prequels 25th Anniversary Covers Revealed

The new issue of Empire celebrates the Prequel trilogy with new interviews with Hayden Christensen, Ewan McGregor, Natalie Portman, Ian McDiarmid and more.

www.empireonline.com

Newsstand Covers

Light Side

Dark Side

Subscriber Cover.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Sounds about right.