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Objectively, front projection cannot be brighter than direct view, such as OLED, correct? (1 Viewer)

JediFonger

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apologies if this is incorrect forum, please move to correct one mods/admins, if needed.

i'm talking about nits both average and peak, OLEDs and its cousins can now all beat front projectors at 500-800 average and beyond 1000nits peak right?

what's the max on front projectors, 300 or peak out at 400 or 500 nits?
 

Stephen_J_H

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apologies if this is incorrect forum, please move to correct one mods/admins, if needed.

i'm talking about nits both average and peak, OLEDs and its cousins can now all beat front projectors at 500-800 average and beyond 1000nits peak right?

what's the max on front projectors, 300 or peak out at 400 or 500 nits?
Depends on the projection tech being used, viewing angle, projector position, ambient light, etc. "Brightness" is a subjective term and is all about perception. Nits are a measurement of light output, but environment plays a huge role in perceived "brightness". Remember that most projection screens are white or in some cases grey, and the task of the projector is to make darkened sections of that white screen appear black, or as close to black as possible and make whites appear purely white. A projector could potentially output 1000 nits peak, but if the minimum black is greater than the SMPTE specification of 0.03 cd/m2, the perceived contrast [and therefore brightness] will suffer by comparison. A laser projector theoretically could produce 1000 nits of peak illumination, but on a white screen in a brightly lit room, it will look less "bright" than an OLED because of the technology. This article explains the "apples to oranges" comparison inherent in a brightness contest between OLED and projection: https://www.projectorcentral.com/th...-18-So-You-Think-Youre-So-Bright&entry_id=779
 

JediFonger

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assuming dark rooms no other light sources and "all else being equal" i mean a projector even laser or whatever bulb or tech you use, it cant output 2,000 nits right? or 3,000 or 10,000 right?

Depends on the projection tech being used, viewing angle, projector position, ambient light, etc. "Brightness" is a subjective term and is all about perception. Nits are a measurement of light output, but environment plays a huge role in perceived "brightness". Remember that most projection screens are white or in some cases grey, and the task of the projector is to make darkened sections of that white screen appear black, or as close to black as possible and make whites appear purely white. A projector could potentially output 1000 nits peak, but if the minimum black is greater than the SMPTE specification of 0.03 cd/m2, the perceived contrast [and therefore brightness] will suffer by comparison. A laser projector theoretically could produce 1000 nits of peak illumination, but on a white screen in a brightly lit room, it will look less "bright" than an OLED because of the technology. This article explains the "apples to oranges" comparison inherent in a brightness contest between OLED and projection: https://www.projectorcentral.com/th...-18-So-You-Think-Youre-So-Bright&entry_id=779
 

Stephen_J_H

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assuming dark rooms no other light sources and "all else being equal" i mean a projector even laser or whatever bulb or tech you use, it cant output 2,000 nits right? or 3,000 or 10,000 right?
I'm not even sure OLEDs can. I know some are at 800+, but because OLEDs can reproduce pure black, they can meet HDR criteria at 540 nits. Projectors have better luck getting close to here with newer screen technologies, which appear grey to the naked eye, but because of the materials used can still present bright whites. QLEDs and microLEDs can produce more "raw" nits because of the nature of the display, but must rely on local dimming to get something resembling pure black.
 

JediFonger

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i forgot about maybe oled was a bad illustration but all of the direct views currently are capable of going many times over front projectors right? i mean there arent any that can output 1k, 2k and beyond nits?
 

Edwin-S

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1000 nits is approximately 3246 lumens. How many projectors can output 3200 lumens? 730 nits is approximately 2500 lumens, so which projectors output approx 2500 lumens?
 

GeorgeHolland

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if we're to believe these reviews: https://www.projectorcentral.com/projectors-home-theater.htm

most projectors are doing 3000, 5000 lumens no problem right?

Using JVC's new top of the Z line NZ9/RS4100 as an example, maximum brightness specification is 3,000 lumens. The NZ8/RS3100 is 2500 Lumens and the NZ7/RS2100 is 2,200 Lumens. These are measured in High Laser with the aperture wide open and the projector at its' shortest throw.

In actual use the brightness is much less. Calibration will impact brightness as well using the color filter available on the NZ8 and NZ9. For example, one reviewer measured an NZ9/RS4100 in High Bright WITH FILTER (full field white) at 2228 lumens (27% loss from filter). The NZ8/RS3100 would be much lower. The NZ7 doesn't have a filter and of course the NZ9 and NZ8 don't require you use it. The NZ9 in High Bright No Filter (full field white) calibrated white point (dE of .1 of less)
HL - 2542 Lumens. Not many are running in High Bright so lumens would be even less but still more that enough for a great image that looks very bright in a dark theater room.

That is why Dynamic Tone Mapping is so impactful with projectors that can come no where near 1000 nits. DTM gives a proper tone map and dynamic range that fits content with much lower brightness and done well like in a JVC or external video processor like the Lumagen Radiance Pro, the image can be projected in such a way it appears more than bright enough in a light controlled room. A projectors ability to offer high brightness levels without also offering great black levels and contrast ratio's, both native and dynamic, are not able to approach the image available on an OLED, especially with 4K and HDR. My new NZ8/RS3100 gets pretty close.

There are quality projectors that are brighter like Christie and top of the line Sony's but now you are in the $50K to $350K price category. Even those won't reach OLED brightness capabilities when calibrated but the Christie needs to been turned way down or your eyeball will burn.
 

JediFonger

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Using JVC's new top of the Z line NZ9/RS4100 as an example, maximum brightness specification is 3,000 lumens. The NZ8/RS3100 is 2500 Lumens and the NZ7/RS2100 is 2,200 Lumens. These are measured in High Laser with the aperture wide open and the projector at its' shortest throw.

In actual use the brightness is much less. Calibration will impact brightness as well using the color filter available on the NZ8 and NZ9. For example, one reviewer measured an NZ9/RS4100 in High Bright WITH FILTER (full field white) at 2228 lumens (27% loss from filter). The NZ8/RS3100 would be much lower. The NZ7 doesn't have a filter and of course the NZ9 and NZ8 don't require you use it. The NZ9 in High Bright No Filter (full field white) calibrated white point (dE of .1 of less)
HL - 2542 Lumens. Not many are running in High Bright so lumens would be even less but still more that enough for a great image that looks very bright in a dark theater room.

That is why Dynamic Tone Mapping is so impactful with projectors that can come no where near 1000 nits. DTM gives a proper tone map and dynamic range that fits content with much lower brightness and done well like in a JVC or external video processor like the Lumagen Radiance Pro, the image can be projected in such a way it appears more than bright enough in a light controlled room. A projectors ability to offer high brightness levels without also offering great black levels and contrast ratio's, both native and dynamic, are not able to approach the image available on an OLED, especially with 4K and HDR. My new NZ8/RS3100 gets pretty close.

There are quality projectors that are brighter like Christie and top of the line Sony's but now you are in the $50K to $350K price category. Even those won't reach OLED brightness capabilities when calibrated but the Christie needs to been turned way down or your eyeball will burn.
so my title statement is correct. currently no front projection tech can come close to direct view when it comes to brightness. i mean i know new tech can always be found… but with microLED under way, it seems unlikely
 

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