Master Tapes of "EARTH 2" at a Pawnshop in WI?? (1 Viewer)

[AndyMcKinney]

Originally Posted by The Obsolete Man




Oh, if only someone had looted the warehouse where the old DuMont footage was stored...

And the videotape libraries of NBC, ABC and the BBC (and others) in the late '60s/early '70s, when they weren't just throwing out rushes, slash prints, etc., but their master--and in several cases--their only copies of stuff...

 

[Neil Brock]

Originally Posted by The Obsolete Man




Oh, if only someone had looted the warehouse where the old DuMont footage was stored...

Not on Kemcha's watch they wouldn't!!! He'd have the video police on them in a heartbeat.

 

[The Obsolete Man]

Isn't most of the old Doctor Who stuff that still survives only still around because people at the BBC hid it after being ordered to destroy it?

I know there's some Hendrix footage from the BBC that survives for that reason.

But, the people who saved that stuff from network ordered destruction are very bad men, and should be sent to the cornfield.

 

[Neil Brock]

There's tons of stories like that. Jack Paar put all of his kinescopes out for the garbageman and the only reason they still exist is that the garbageman saved them.

 

[Corey3rd]

Originally Posted by kemcha
=
Trust me, it's better that you contact NBC and return that videotape. More than likely, NBC will reward you with a DVD or DVD set for returning their property.

It doesn't matter whether or not NBC "intended" to never use that tape again. Trust me on this when I tell you that NBC will want to know if they have holes in their security where they have employees or staff walking off their studio lots with copies of their television shows or movies. Take a look at what happened with that Wolverine movie that was partially complete. 20th Century Fox ended up prosecuting the person that uploaded that movie to the internet and he was just recently sentenced with prison time.

NBC is going to want to know if their employees are selling copies of their videotaped shows because they don't want that material to be sold at pawnshops. Considering that these shows have content that isn't available on the DVD releases, NBC could be held liable by music producers, music labels as well as licensors, producers, directors and whatnot.

Have you worked or know anyone who works in network television? Nobody will give you a reward or a DVD. While you want to compare this to Wolverine - this is network TV. Probably a month after this tape was dubbed for someone - it aired on TV for FREE! Anybody could tape it. Whereas Wolverine had a year before it would be on a Pay-channel and be taped for free. Fox lost money.

Also you act like this is somehow a theft in progress. They give this stuff away and they don't expect it back. I've got tapes marked like that from shows I worked on. I have pals who direct network TV. They have numerous shelves of their work on VHS dubbed like this. It's how it is done. These tapes are not the same as selling a stolen stereo part to a pawn store. This is the same as if you sold a couple blank tapes to the pawn store.Or if you sold a copy of Elvis Costello's Armed Forces with the Radio stations only sticker on the cover.

Don't have people thinking they'll somehow have the FBI opening up a file to hunt down the case of "Earth 2 dubs.

 

[kemcha]

I seriously doubt that the network is giving away master tapes of their television shows as they're not something that they would want out in the public. Not only that, but the studio could actually get sued by right's holders of the music that appears within those tapes.

 

[The Obsolete Man]

What you never seem to realize is that this isn't a master tape that was found... it's a work print, if that.

It's incomplete, with no effects, probably no music. No one cares about this tape, except you. If you were to call NBC today and report the fact that this tape were out in the world, roaming free, NBC would probably ask "WTF is Earth 2, and how did you get this number?"

 

[Ockeghem]

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

There's tons of stories like that. Jack Paar put all of his kinescopes out for the garbageman and the only reason they still exist is that the garbageman saved them.

Neil,

Seriously? What a story. I'd never heard that before. That show was a staple of my parents back in the early 1960s, and I too watched it (all too infrequently, unfortunately) when it was on the air. I wonder if the Beatles performance shown on his show (via tape) in Nov. of 1963 was in this pile of trash? Amazing.

Your comment about the kinescopes got me to thinking about an interview I watched last night. It was on the special features of Dark Shadows: The Beginning (Collection 3). Conrad Fowkes, who played Frank Garner in that soap, was quite surprised at how few kinescopes from soaps had (apparently) survived. I consider it a minor miracle that virtually all 1,225 episodes of Dark Shadows are extant.

 

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by kemcha

I seriously doubt that the network is giving away master tapes of their television shows as they're not something that they would want out in the public. Not only that, but the studio could actually get sued by right's holders of the music that appears within those tapes.

Okay first of all they are NOT master tapes. They are likely just a render out to tape from Avid of a rough edit of the episodes. Very likely at low resolution. Its not likely that NBC gives a rats ass about it. I came into possession of edit render outs of The X-Files in the mid 90s when I was working at Universal. How tapes from Fox got to Universal I'm not sure. These tapes end up in second hand stores quite often and no one cares.

In addition they would not belong to NBC, but rather Ambin Entertainment and Universal which produced Earth 2.

Doug

 

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by Ockeghem




Neil,



Your comment about the kinescopes got me to thinking about an interview I watched last night. It was on the special features of Dark Shadows: The Beginning (Collection 3). Conrad Fowkes, who played Frank Garner in that soap, was quite surprised at how few kinescopes from soaps had (apparently) survived. I consider it a minor miracle that virtually all 1,225 episodes of Dark Shadows are extant.

Kinescopes are unlikely. Ampex introduced the Quadruplex videotape recorder in 1956 and all but replaced the Kenescopes with in a year. Dark Shadows started in 1966 and was recorded on video tape. However it is surprising that the early tapes survive, as it was the policy of most networks to tape over old shows. That is of course why we don't have many early Tonight Show episodes.

Doug

 

[kemcha]

I'm not debating whether or not they are master tapes, I'm just relying on the information from the OP. Far as I understand it, technically speaking, those tapes are the property of NBC and I doubt they would allow those tapes to be sold to area pawnshops or let their employees have them.

Take WKRP, for instance. Say someone finds a similar tape with the original music included in the episodes on said VHS tapes. The studio could actually be held liable for violating copyright law as it pertains to the music included in those episodes and that studio could be held liable for not obtaining a license to release those videotapes. Since those tapes were created for use by the studio, the studio could be held liable just as they would if they had released a complete season set of that show without obtaining the proper licensing fior the music included in that particular television series.

Music rights holders don't care about whether it was released mass market or just sold to the local pawnshop or given away, the rights holders of the music included within that show could sue the studio and the studio could be held liable for the full amount of damages, and those damages could be either set by the courts or justified by the rights holders themselves.

Licensing is big business in the entertainment industry, whether you're working for Hollywood or for the music industry.

The studio could actually be liable for a lawsuit over copyright infringement from the music industry because they would have needed permission from the music studio who controlled that music.

 

[Ockeghem]

Originally Posted by Douglas Monce Kinescopes are unlikely. Ampex introduced the Quadruplex videotape recorder in 1956 and all but replaced the Kenescopes with in a year. Dark Shadows started in 1966 and was recorded on video tape. However it is surprising that the early tapes survive, as it was the policy of most networks to tape over old shows. That is of course why we don't have many early Tonight Show episodes. Doug

Doug,

Yes, while it is true that Dark Shadows was recorded on videotape, filmed kinescopes (thankfully) were also made for the series. I really love the ‘feel’ of kinescoped Dark Shadows, as those episodes really do have a timeless quality about them. As my oldest daughter has remarked, they are 'double creepy,' since they are already in b&w and are once more removed. One can see and hear the difference in these episodes. They happen to be some of my favorite episodes to watch from an aural and visual standpoint. Here is one interesting link on kinescoped Shadows: http://www.darkshadows.com/main.html

 

[Jack P]

Kinescoping as a low cost alternative didn't end until 1975. There are a number of newscasts as late as 1975 that ABC only preserved in that format.

The amount of vintage TV through the early 70s wiped out of existence due to tape erasure would stagger the minds of most people.

 

[Ockeghem]

^^^

I shudder to think of what that amount actually is.

"However it is surprising that the early tapes survive, as it was the policy of most networks to tape over old shows."

Doug,

Yep, this is what Fowkes alluded to as well. I didn't realize that he had been on several soaps. Since I only watched two (Peyton Place and Dark Shadows), his face was not all that familiar to me when I first saw him on Dark Shadows. His interview provided insights not only into kinescopes, but also with regard to how the filming of 'sets' (as opposed to scenes with differing sets) occurred more or less consecutively several years later in soap operas.

 

[The Obsolete Man]

Originally Posted by Jack P

Kinescoping as a low cost alternative didn't end until 1975. There are a number of newscasts as late as 1975 that ABC only preserved in that format.

The amount of vintage TV through the early 70s wiped out of existence due to tape erasure would stagger the minds of most people.

As a game show freak, I can tell from the staggering amount of game shows that were wiped that the amount of all TV Programming gone is probably astounding.

I mean, in game shows alone, 10,000 Pyramid, 20,000 Pyramid, and ABC's Password are all nearly completely gone. And those were popular game shows.

If popular shows were wiped, anything could have been destroyed.

As for Kinescoping, weren't the Kines also used as a method to distribute programming to the smaller stations in smaller markets through the 60s and early 70s?

 

[Ockeghem]

"As for Kinescoping, weren't the Kines also used as a method to distribute programming to the smaller stations in smaller markets through the 60s and early 70s?"

In the case of Dark Shadows, yes. This is mentioned in the link I posted above. I can't speak for other shows, however.

 

[Brian Himes]

I've been following this discussion and I have to say that kemcha is blowing this way out of porportion.

If you read the original post, these tapes do not contain music or finished effects scenes. These are the equivalent of work prints. In all likelyhood, NBC or the produceres of Earth 2 tossed these tapes years ago. Calling NBC would accomplish nothing. As I said, they probably threw this stuff out long ago and could care less that it still exists. These are not tapes of 100% complete episodes of the show. The only true value of these tapes are to collectors and possibly a tiny, almost miniscule, value as a piece of TV history.

To the original poster, just enjoy the tapes and count yourself lucky for a great find. You've already gotten your reward when you discovered them.

As for kemcha, take a chill pill. No one is violating any licensing laws. The FBI (or NBC or anyone else for that matter) is not going to be breaking down the door to the pawn shop and start interrogating the owners over ten year old work print tapes (that are probably one of a dozen such tapes in existence) of a long forgotten short lived TV show. Let's move on.

 

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by Ockeghem




Doug,

Yes, while it is true that Dark Shadows was recorded on videotape, filmed kinescopes (thankfully) were also made for the series. I really love the ‘feel’ of kinescoped Dark Shadows, as those episodes really do have a timeless quality about them. As my oldest daughter has remarked, they are 'double creepy,' since they are already in b&w and are once more removed. One can see and hear the difference in these episodes. They happen to be some of my favorite episodes to watch from an aural and visual standpoint.

Here is one interesting link on kinescoped Shadows:

http://www.darkshadows.com/main.html

Ah that makes sense. Kinescope for distribution to small markets. So they were able to find Kinescopes for some of the episodes where the original tape was missing. Interesting.

I know the first 6 or 8 months of the show, from 1966 to 67 they shot with RCA b&w cameras, then switched to Philips color cameras sometime in 67.

Doug

 

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by The Obsolete Man




As a game show freak, I can tell from the staggering amount of game shows that were wiped that the amount of all TV Programming gone is probably astounding.

I mean, in game shows alone, 10,000 Pyramid, 20,000 Pyramid, and ABC's Password are all nearly completely gone. And those were popular game shows.

If popular shows were wiped, anything could have been destroyed.

As for Kinescoping, weren't the Kines also used as a method to distribute programming to the smaller stations in smaller markets through the 60s and early 70s?

And I love those old game shows from the 50s and 60s. I would love to see The Liar's Club hosted by none other than Rod Serling on DVD. Actually when I was a kid I watched the late 70's version of that show too.

Doug

 

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by kemcha

I'm not debating whether or not they are master tapes, I'm just relying on the information from the OP. Far as I understand it, technically speaking, those tapes are the property of NBC and I doubt they would allow those tapes to be sold to area pawnshops or let their employees have them.

Take WKRP, for instance. Say someone finds a similar tape with the original music included in the episodes on said VHS tapes. The studio could actually be held liable for violating copyright law as it pertains to the music included in those episodes and that studio could be held liable for not obtaining a license to release those videotapes. Since those tapes were created for use by the studio, the studio could be held liable just as they would if they had released a complete season set of that show without obtaining the proper licensing fior the music included in that particular television series.

Music rights holders don't care about whether it was released mass market or just sold to the local pawnshop or given away, the rights holders of the music included within that show could sue the studio and the studio could be held liable for the full amount of damages, and those damages could be either set by the courts or justified by the rights holders themselves.

Licensing is big business in the entertainment industry, whether you're working for Hollywood or for the music industry.

The studio could actually be liable for a lawsuit over copyright infringement from the music industry because they would have needed permission from the music studio who controlled that music.

Well don't recall Earth 2 containing any popular music in the show. And these tapes, being a rough cut, likely have NO music in them at all either songs or score. Its a non-issue.

Doug